Thread: I saw it like Lederman did.

WINNER


LOSER




'NUFF SAID!

Its impossible.

Youve just exposed yourself with that joke of a scorecard.. Lol during the fight, most people were shaking their head at lederman's scores... Yet here you are, being proud of coming up with the same foolish scores.. Haha ur a foo and a follower.

No way on earth can you be serious. Justify how you give 8 rounds to Pacquiao.

It's impossible.

One of the worst decisions in recent memory. A real black eye for boxing.

i don't like current boxing scorecards stuff, i think that is very dangerous when judges don't score close rounds as tied rounds and when they score a clear round just 10 9

You have to do more than what JMM just did against a champion especially in the stature of a Manny Pacquiao to win an outright decision. Purely self opinion on my part!

Pre fight, Dinamita planned to leave the outcome of the fight out of the hands of the judges and yet all he did was back pedal and counter, albeit beautifully, all night. Sadly, this scheme was all he wanted to do... and all he was willing to risk! Regardless that it has already been previously established that based on the wins awarded to his oponent in these tightly contested fights, the agressor and his opponent, is the one given the nod.

Pac wins purely by being the aggressor! The one by which with the slightest of ring fan's outcries will immeditely seek to be the aggressor and bring the fight on and taking risks in an ironically for Manny, a high-risk but low-reward type of a duel.

Pacquiao's main thing though in this fight, is not to be "the" Montiel to a "Dinamita Donaire". To be COUNTER PUNKED, uncrowned out of his lofty perch!

Nowadays, Juan Manuel clearly can no longer outsmart a savvy version of Pac. Relying on Pacquiao being too overly aggressive to the point of recklessness was no smart move, for it never happened and assuredly, can no longer happen as it had in the past particularly as in the second round of their second fight.

When this carelessness did not materialize, the warrior in Marquez should have had been summoned instead and engaged Pac in a savage knockout slugfest.

Had this happen, and the fight's outcome still close, I would not have a problem with Juan Manuel Marquez winning it. He is, by the way the greatest of all Mexican warriors to ever lace it.

Did it happen though?

Sadly, No! Cautiousness and respect on each fighter robbed us of a better fight and cautiousness and respect too, evidently, got the better of a more decisive result!

Ok then. That's 5 people on the planet who though pac won. Anyone else?

i think that in boxing it has been shown that aggresiveness is overrated, and defense and skill are underrated, efficiency is underrated, good boxers have won many key fights, ali beat liston, beat foreman, holyfield beat tyson, leonard beat hearns, etc

and klitschkos beat anyone since the powerful tactician lewis

was there a super fight with mayweather on the cards? Think of the money they'd make!!

Originally Posted by KananKrus

You have to do more than what JMM just did against a champion especially in the stature of a Manny Pacquiao to win an outright decision. Purely self opinion on my part!

Pre fight, Dinamita planned to leave the outcome of the fight out of the hands of the judges and yet all he did was back pedal and counter, albeit beautifully, all night. Sadly, this scheme was all he wanted to do... and all he was willing to risk! Regardless that it has already been previously established that based on the wins awarded to his oponent in these tightly contested fights, the agressor and his opponent, is the one given the nod.

Pac wins purely by being the aggressor! The one by which with the slightest of ring fan's outcries will immeditely seek to be the aggressor and bring the fight on and taking risks in an ironically for Manny, a high-risk but low-reward type of a duel.

Pacquiao's main thing though in this fight, is not to be "the" Montiel to a "Dinamita Donaire". To be COUNTER PUNKED, uncrowned out of his lofty perch!

Nowadays, Juan Manuel clearly can no longer outsmart a savvy version of Pac. Relying on Pacquiao being too overly aggressive to the point of recklessness was no smart move, for it never happened and assuredly, can no longer happen as it had in the past particularly as in the second round of their second fight.

When this carelessness did not materialize, the warrior in Marquez should have had been summoned instead and engaged Pac in a savage knockout slugfest.

Had this happen, and the fight's outcome still close, I would not have a problem with Juan Manuel Marquez winning it. He is, by the way the greatest of all Mexican warriors to ever lace it.

Did it happen though?

Sadly, No! Cautiousness and respect on each fighter robbed us of a better fight and cautiousness and respect too, evidently, got the better of a more decisive result!

I disagree. I know I'm not alone in thinking that was precisely what Marquez did last night. He out-thought Pacquiao and made him look fairly poor for long spells. I'm gutted for him that he didn't get the decision he deserved. I don't even think last night's fight was particularly close.

Originally Posted by KananKrus

You have to do more than what JMM just did against a champion especially in the stature of a Manny Pacquiao to win an outright decision. Purely self opinion on my part!

Pre fight, Dinamita planned to leave the outcome of the fight out of the hands of the judges and yet all he did was back pedal and counter, albeit beautifully, all night. Sadly, this scheme was all he wanted to do... and all he was willing to risk! Regardless that it has already been previously established that based on the wins awarded to his oponent in these tightly contested fights, the agressor and his opponent, is the one given the nod.

Pac wins purely by being the aggressor! The one by which with the slightest of ring fan's outcries will immeditely seek to be the aggressor and bring the fight on and taking risks in an ironically for Manny, a high-risk but low-reward type of a duel.

Pacquiao's main thing though in this fight, is not to be "the" Montiel to a "Dinamita Donaire". To be COUNTER PUNKED, uncrowned out of his lofty perch!

Nowadays, Juan Manuel clearly can no longer outsmart a savvy version of Pac. Relying on Pacquiao being too overly aggressive to the point of recklessness was no smart move, for it never happened and assuredly, can no longer happen as it had in the past particularly as in the second round of their second fight.

When this carelessness did not materialize, the warrior in Marquez should have had been summoned instead and engaged Pac in a savage knockout slugfest.

Had this happen, and the fight's outcome still close, I would not have a problem with Juan Manuel Marquez winning it. He is, by the way the greatest of all Mexican warriors to ever lace it.

Did it happen though?

Sadly, No! Cautiousness and respect on each fighter robbed us of a better fight and cautiousness and respect too, evidently, got the better of a more decisive result!

I understand what you're saying, and there is some merit to it, however, at age 38, and having been put on the canvas my Katsidis, I think Marquez's decision not go toe-to-toe with Pacquiao was the only decision a reasonable man could have made. Going toe-to-toe with Pac last night Marquez would have ended up with the same outcome as the last two fights; he would almost certainly have been caught and KD'd at some point, and then they would have spun it the same way they spun the first two fights. So Marquez changed his game-plan, and as was the case before he changed his style to become a more aggressive fighter, he was punished for putting an emphasis on skill above (the illusion) of spectacle.

He couldn't afford to risk a slugfest with Manny, he knew he had to outbox Pac and not get drawn into a brawl, and surmised that there was no way they could rob him again if he made it clear in this way that he was the better man. What Marquez proved last night is not only that he was the better fighter, but also that no matter what style of fight he fights, no matter what way he showcases his obvious technical superiority, Pac will always get the nod because of his more crowd-pleasing style and the potential profit Arum sees in his prize pinoy. The Mayweather fight may well be made now, and will no doubt break all records, but judging from last night PBF will slap Pac around like a sparring partner for 12 rounds.

And btw, for all those complaining Marquez didn't take the fight to Pacquiao, let me remind you Manny was an 8-1 favourite and most people on here were talking about how Pac was going to murder Marquez. Pac and Roach both decided Pac was going to just KO Marquez and brush the dirt off his shoulder, as he cemented his place as the greatest fighter ever (rofl at this claim from Roach on 24/7), and yet he never even had Marquez hurt in the fight, a man who was apparently over the hill, and who he had already knocked down 4 times in two previous fights. I think people saying Marquez needed to push the fight more are missing the fact that Pac hardly pressed it - yes he was the aggressor, but there is a difference between throwing a flurry, being outmanoeuvred and giving up for a bit so that he can have a breather before making another half-hearted attempt, and effective, intelligent aggression.

Marquez made him miss all night, his upper body movement was a hundred times better in this fight than in the last two, his lateral movement, footwork and timing were all exceptional, and his countering was just beautiful to watch. All in all, he was the far superior fighter on the night, and the fact that Pac every now and then wildly threw his face at Marquez's right hand, occasionally grazing him with his windmill flurries when they got to fighting on the inside, does not translate to Pacquiao winning 8 of 12 rounds. I had Pac edging round 1, but rounds 2-8 were Marquez's (and this observation was confirmed when even Roach told Manny he was falling behind in the mid-rounds), and I also had Marquez edging round 9 (though I could understand people scoring that for Pac, but even then it would still be a 7-5 win for JMM). I felt Pac came back a bit in the final 3 rounds and edged them, though they were still close rounds, with Marquez being ever-more cautious of a KD as Pac got more desperate, both men clearly understanding that Marquez was winning the fight big, as their trainers certainly knew.

Frankly, anyone who managed to score that fight 8-4 to Pacquiao either has an ulterior motive or needs their head examined. Even Khan had Marquez winning the fight and was weakly trying to avoid criticising Pac's performance on the commentary, focusing instead on how masterful Marquez's performance was. Manny's body language clearly suggested that he thought, even as the champion and Arum's cash cow, there was no way the judges could sort this one for him. I said it when I saw it and my mind won't be changed by all those who talk about Marquez not doing enough, he could have decapitated Manny and they still would have found a way to give Pac the fight - probably DQ'd him for excessive violence.

The man didn't get a fair shake in the first two fights, and once again he was done over, but this time it was even worse; with all the hype surrounding this fight, with all the claims from both sides, the stage was set for Pac to delude everyone into believing he is the greatest fighter of his generation by dominating a 38 year old man he had already knocked down 4 times, who had recently fought close fights against fighters considerably less talented than him, and yet what actually took place was the unravelling of the Pacquiao myth, and the revelation that after 10 years under Freddie Roach, and sharing the ring with JMM for 36 rounds, he still can't master him.

It's sad that some people think the onus is purely on the challenger, as well - what about the champion? He was easily frustrated last night, and he showed no real desire to go after Marquez the way he did in the first two fights. Why? Because he knew he'd get smacked up and Marquez would move off to his left and come around him again, avoiding that left hand, out-boxing him, re-initiating that infuriating pattern of miss-counter. So what we have is fans condemning Marquez for not taking risks, and yet not criticising Pac for the way he backed off every time Marquez through a few counters and interrupted his rhythm. In conclusion, anyone who knows anything about fighting, has ever been involved in it or truly studied its mechanics and strategies, understands that Pac was well and truly beaten last night, his physical advantages in speed and power being totally nullified by a man whose intelligence and skill are his greatest gifts. It's just a shame that these talents are all too often overlooked for those which are deemed more 'glamorous', and that the sport of boxing is still just as diseased as it has ever been.

Originally Posted by SRR

Originally Posted by KananKrus

You have to do more than what JMM just did against a champion especially in the stature of a Manny Pacquiao to win an outright decision. Purely self opinion on my part!

Pre fight, Dinamita planned to leave the outcome of the fight out of the hands of the judges and yet all he did was back pedal and counter, albeit beautifully, all night. Sadly, this scheme was all he wanted to do... and all he was willing to risk! Regardless that it has already been previously established that based on the wins awarded to his oponent in these tightly contested fights, the agressor and his opponent, is the one given the nod.

Pac wins purely by being the aggressor! The one by which with the slightest of ring fan's outcries will immeditely seek to be the aggressor and bring the fight on and taking risks in an ironically for Manny, a high-risk but low-reward type of a duel.

Pacquiao's main thing though in this fight, is not to be "the" Montiel to a "Dinamita Donaire". To be COUNTER PUNKED, uncrowned out of his lofty perch!

Nowadays, Juan Manuel clearly can no longer outsmart a savvy version of Pac. Relying on Pacquiao being too overly aggressive to the point of recklessness was no smart move, for it never happened and assuredly, can no longer happen as it had in the past particularly as in the second round of their second fight.

When this carelessness did not materialize, the warrior in Marquez should have had been summoned instead and engaged Pac in a savage knockout slugfest.

Had this happen, and the fight's outcome still close, I would not have a problem with Juan Manuel Marquez winning it. He is, by the way the greatest of all Mexican warriors to ever lace it.

Did it happen though?

Sadly, No! Cautiousness and respect on each fighter robbed us of a better fight and cautiousness and respect too, evidently, got the better of a more decisive result!

I understand what you're saying, and there is some merit to it, however, at age 38, and having been put on the canvas my Katsidis, I think Marquez's decision not go toe-to-toe with Pacquiao was the only decision a reasonable man could have made. Going toe-to-toe with Pac last night Marquez would have ended up with the same outcome as the last two fights; he would almost certainly have been caught and KD'd at some point, and then they would have spun it the same way they spun the first two fights. So Marquez changed his game-plan, and as was the case before he changed his style to become a more aggressive fighter, he was punished for putting an emphasis on skill above (the illusion) of spectacle.

He couldn't afford to risk a slugfest with Manny, he knew he had to outbox Pac and not get drawn into a brawl, and surmised that there was no way they could rob him again if he made it clear in this way that he was the better man. What Marquez proved last night is not only that he was the better fighter, but also that no matter what style of fight he fights, no matter what way he showcases his obvious technical superiority, Pac will always get the nod because of his more crowd-pleasing style and the potential profit Arum sees in his prize pinoy. The Mayweather fight may well be made now, and will no doubt break all records, but judging from last night PBF will slap Pac around like a sparring partner for 12 rounds.

And btw, for all those complaining Marquez didn't take the fight to Pacquiao, let me remind you Manny was an 8-1 favourite and most people on here were talking about how Pac was going to murder Marquez. Pac and Roach both decided Pac was going to just KO Marquez and brush the dirt off his shoulder, as he cemented his place as the greatest fighter ever (rofl at this claim from Roach on 24/7), and yet he never even had Marquez hurt in the fight, a man who was apparently over the hill, and who he had already knocked down 4 times in two previous fights. I think people saying Marquez needed to push the fight more are missing the fact that Pac hardly pressed it - yes he was the aggressor, but there is a difference between throwing a flurry, being outmanoeuvred and giving up for a bit so that he can have a breather before making another half-hearted attempt, and effective, intelligent aggression.

Marquez made him miss all night, his upper body movement was a hundred times better in this fight than in the last two, his lateral movement, footwork and timing were all exceptional, and his countering was just beautiful to watch. All in all, he was the far superior fighter on the night, and the fact that Pac every now and then wildly threw his face at Marquez's right hand, occasionally grazing him with his windmill flurries when they got to fighting on the inside, does not translate to Pacquiao winning 8 of 12 rounds. I had Pac edging round 1, but rounds 2-8 were Marquez's (and this observation was confirmed when even Roach told Manny he was falling behind in the mid-rounds), and I also had Marquez edging round 9 (though I could understand people scoring that for Pac, but even then it would still be a 7-5 win for JMM). I felt Pac came back a bit in the final 3 rounds and edged them, though they were still close rounds, with Marquez being ever-more cautious of a KD as Pac got more desperate, both men clearly understanding that Marquez was winning the fight big, as their trainers certainly knew.

Frankly, anyone who managed to score that fight 8-4 to Pacquiao either has an ulterior motive or needs their head examined. Even Khan had Marquez winning the fight and was weakly trying to avoid criticising Pac's performance on the commentary, focusing instead on how masterful Marquez's performance was. Manny's body language clearly suggested that he thought, even as the champion and Arum's cash cow, there was no way the judges could sort this one for him. I said it when I saw it and my mind won't be changed by all those who talk about Marquez not doing enough, he could have decapitated Manny and they still would have found a way to give Pac the fight - probably DQ'd him for excessive violence.

The man didn't get a fair shake in the first two fights, and once again he was done over, but this time it was even worse; with all the hype surrounding this fight, with all the claims from both sides, the stage was set for Pac to delude everyone into believing he is the greatest fighter of his generation by dominating a 38 year old man he had already knocked down 4 times, who had recently fought close fights against fighters considerably less talented than him, and yet what actually took place was the unravelling of the Pacquiao myth, and the revelation that after 10 years under Freddie Roach, and sharing the ring with JMM for 36 rounds, he still can't master him.

It's sad that some people think the onus is purely on the challenger, as well - what about the champion? He was easily frustrated last night, and he showed no real desire to go after Marquez the way he did in the first two fights. Why? Because he knew he'd get smacked up and Marquez would move off to his left and come around him again, avoiding that left hand, out-boxing him, re-initiating that infuriating pattern of miss-counter. So what we have is fans condemning Marquez for not taking risks, and yet not criticising Pac for the way he backed off every time Marquez through a few counters and interrupted his rhythm. In conclusion, anyone who knows anything about fighting, has ever been involved in it or truly studied its mechanics and strategies, understands that Pac was well and truly beaten last night, his physical advantages in speed and power being totally nullified by a man whose intelligence and skill are his greatest gifts. It's just a shame that these talents are all too often overlooked for those which are deemed more 'glamorous', and that the sport of boxing is still just as diseased as it has ever been.

SRR does it again 100.. This dude needs to start writing for a website.

when the question in the back of your head while you're waiting for the decision is "Is he going to get robbed?" rather than "whose going to get the nod?" it says alot

Originally Posted by SRR

Originally Posted by KananKrus

You have to do more than what JMM just did against a champion especially in the stature of a Manny Pacquiao to win an outright decision. Purely self opinion on my part!

Pre fight, Dinamita planned to leave the outcome of the fight out of the hands of the judges and yet all he did was back pedal and counter, albeit beautifully, all night. Sadly, this scheme was all he wanted to do... and all he was willing to risk! Regardless that it has already been previously established that based on the wins awarded to his oponent in these tightly contested fights, the agressor and his opponent, is the one given the nod.

Pac wins purely by being the aggressor! The one by which with the slightest of ring fan's outcries will immeditely seek to be the aggressor and bring the fight on and taking risks in an ironically for Manny, a high-risk but low-reward type of a duel.

Pacquiao's main thing though in this fight, is not to be "the" Montiel to a "Dinamita Donaire". To be COUNTER PUNKED, uncrowned out of his lofty perch!

Nowadays, Juan Manuel clearly can no longer outsmart a savvy version of Pac. Relying on Pacquiao being too overly aggressive to the point of recklessness was no smart move, for it never happened and assuredly, can no longer happen as it had in the past particularly as in the second round of their second fight.

When this carelessness did not materialize, the warrior in Marquez should have had been summoned instead and engaged Pac in a savage knockout slugfest.

Had this happen, and the fight's outcome still close, I would not have a problem with Juan Manuel Marquez winning it. He is, by the way the greatest of all Mexican warriors to ever lace it.

Did it happen though?

Sadly, No! Cautiousness and respect on each fighter robbed us of a better fight and cautiousness and respect too, evidently, got the better of a more decisive result!

I understand what you're saying, and there is some merit to it, however, at age 38, and having been put on the canvas my Katsidis, I think Marquez's decision not go toe-to-toe with Pacquiao was the only decision a reasonable man could have made. Going toe-to-toe with Pac last night Marquez would have ended up with the same outcome as the last two fights; he would almost certainly have been caught and KD'd at some point, and then they would have spun it the same way they spun the first two fights. So Marquez changed his game-plan, and as was the case before he changed his style to become a more aggressive fighter, he was punished for putting an emphasis on skill above (the illusion) of spectacle.

He couldn't afford to risk a slugfest with Manny, he knew he had to outbox Pac and not get drawn into a brawl, and surmised that there was no way they could rob him again if he made it clear in this way that he was the better man. What Marquez proved last night is not only that he was the better fighter, but also that no matter what style of fight he fights, no matter what way he showcases his obvious technical superiority, Pac will always get the nod because of his more crowd-pleasing style and the potential profit Arum sees in his prize pinoy. The Mayweather fight may well be made now, and will no doubt break all records, but judging from last night PBF will slap Pac around like a sparring partner for 12 rounds.

And btw, for all those complaining Marquez didn't take the fight to Pacquiao, let me remind you Manny was an 8-1 favourite and most people on here were talking about how Pac was going to murder Marquez. Pac and Roach both decided Pac was going to just KO Marquez and brush the dirt off his shoulder, as he cemented his place as the greatest fighter ever (rofl at this claim from Roach on 24/7), and yet he never even had Marquez hurt in the fight, a man who was apparently over the hill, and who he had already knocked down 4 times in two previous fights. I think people saying Marquez needed to push the fight more are missing the fact that Pac hardly pressed it - yes he was the aggressor, but there is a difference between throwing a flurry, being outmanoeuvred and giving up for a bit so that he can have a breather before making another half-hearted attempt, and effective, intelligent aggression.

Marquez made him miss all night, his upper body movement was a hundred times better in this fight than in the last two, his lateral movement, footwork and timing were all exceptional, and his countering was just beautiful to watch. All in all, he was the far superior fighter on the night, and the fact that Pac every now and then wildly threw his face at Marquez's right hand, occasionally grazing him with his windmill flurries when they got to fighting on the inside, does not translate to Pacquiao winning 8 of 12 rounds. I had Pac edging round 1, but rounds 2-8 were Marquez's (and this observation was confirmed when even Roach told Manny he was falling behind in the mid-rounds), and I also had Marquez edging round 9 (though I could understand people scoring that for Pac, but even then it would still be a 7-5 win for JMM). I felt Pac came back a bit in the final 3 rounds and edged them, though they were still close rounds, with Marquez being ever-more cautious of a KD as Pac got more desperate, both men clearly understanding that Marquez was winning the fight big, as their trainers certainly knew.

Frankly, anyone who managed to score that fight 8-4 to Pacquiao either has an ulterior motive or needs their head examined. Even Khan had Marquez winning the fight and was weakly trying to avoid criticising Pac's performance on the commentary, focusing instead on how masterful Marquez's performance was. Manny's body language clearly suggested that he thought, even as the champion and Arum's cash cow, there was no way the judges could sort this one for him. I said it when I saw it and my mind won't be changed by all those who talk about Marquez not doing enough, he could have decapitated Manny and they still would have found a way to give Pac the fight - probably DQ'd him for excessive violence.

The man didn't get a fair shake in the first two fights, and once again he was done over, but this time it was even worse; with all the hype surrounding this fight, with all the claims from both sides, the stage was set for Pac to delude everyone into believing he is the greatest fighter of his generation by dominating a 38 year old man he had already knocked down 4 times, who had recently fought close fights against fighters considerably less talented than him, and yet what actually took place was the unravelling of the Pacquiao myth, and the revelation that after 10 years under Freddie Roach, and sharing the ring with JMM for 36 rounds, he still can't master him.

It's sad that some people think the onus is purely on the challenger, as well - what about the champion? He was easily frustrated last night, and he showed no real desire to go after Marquez the way he did in the first two fights. Why? Because he knew he'd get smacked up and Marquez would move off to his left and come around him again, avoiding that left hand, out-boxing him, re-initiating that infuriating pattern of miss-counter. So what we have is fans condemning Marquez for not taking risks, and yet not criticising Pac for the way he backed off every time Marquez through a few counters and interrupted his rhythm. In conclusion, anyone who knows anything about fighting, has ever been involved in it or truly studied its mechanics and strategies, understands that Pac was well and truly beaten last night, his physical advantages in speed and power being totally nullified by a man whose intelligence and skill are his greatest gifts. It's just a shame that these talents are all too often overlooked for those which are deemed more 'glamorous', and that the sport of boxing is still just as diseased as it has ever been.

Very well said. Pac was frustrated and lost to a better boxer last night...plain and simple. He knew it, Roach knew it, and anyone with an unbiased love for the fight game knows it. At 38, past his best, Marquez put on a boxing clinic. I have said for quite sometime...that before this match...people bought in WAY too much into how PAC "destroyed" his recent opponents. I thought before this fight that Floyd would beat Pac...but after seeing what Marquez did...i think Floyd would punish Manny. Anyways....heart goes out to Marquez...but i think he solidified his status as one of the all time great warriors and technicians in the game.