Was Ali beaten in his prime?(this article says yes!)

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=7022&more=1


22.05.06 - By Graham Berrisford: In discussing the least-regarded (1974) fight between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, Frank Lotierzo mentioned in a piece on the "East Side Boxing" web site that nobody beat Ali in his prime. I will argue Ali was beaten in his prime by Frazier. And there is much more to be said about Frazier in comparison with Ali. One remarkable fact to begin with. After Frazier retired, we learnt he was registered blind in one eye before his boxing career started.

For any sport that requires skill and tactics as well as brute strength, an athlete's prime is probably the years from 25 to 31 years old. If you take George Foreman as your example, a heavyweight boxer can come back to regain the world championship in his mid forties. In his early career, Ali never boxed 15 rounds, and his 12 round fights were not as testing as those later against Frazier and Foreman.

Ali was out of the professional boxing ring from 25 to 28, but he was back (Quarry, Oct 1970) ring-tested over 15 rounds (Bonavena Dec 1970) and fully fit well before his first fight with Frazier. If Ali danced a little less in 15-round championship fights on his return, that didn't mean he was past his prime as a boxer, and it probably showed a wiser man, better able to last the longer distance.

Ali (b. January, 1942) was only two years older than Frazier (b. January, 1944). They fought three times. In 1971, both were surely in their prime. In 1974, Frazier's fitness can be questioned. In 1975, they were at the end of their prime, but the fight itself showed their strength and fitness.

The first bout (dubbed "Fight of the Century") took place on March 8, 1971, in New York. Frazier was the heavyweight champion of the world. Ali was the challenger, and this was his first championship fight since being stripped of his title and banned from boxing for refusing to join the military in 1967. Frazier won the fight in a unanimous decision, knocking Ali down in the 15th round.


Frank Lotierzo again: "In the next 33 months, the fighters took different paths. Frazier toured abroad with his singing group "Joe Frazier and The Knockouts". Frazier fought just four times and wasn't anywhere near close to the shape he was in for Ali. In those four fights, Frazier went 3-1 stopping Daniels' and Stander, was stopped by Foreman, and decisioned Bugner. Ali fought 13 times going 12-1 in those fights. His loss was to Ken Norton in March of 1973. Six months later he fought Norton again and won a very close decision. Over those 33 months, Ali's weight fluctuated between 212 and 221. During this time Ali fought all the top contenders and was virtually trying to take away all potential Frazier opponents, in order to force Frazier to fight him again."

Their second and perhap underrated bout Jan. 20, 1974 was a non-title fight; Frazier having lost the championship to George Foreman. Some say Ali won the fight before it started, by winding Frazier up. During appearances on TV, Ali brutalized Frazier verbally. When Frazier tried to talk or make a point, Ali interrupted him and mocked Frazier's diction. When it came to the fight Ali defeated Frazier in a 12-round decision. Later that year, Ali knocked out Foreman in Zaire ("Rumble in the Jungle") winning the heavyweight title for the second time.

The third and final bout ("Thrilla in Manila") was on Oct. 1, 1975 in the Philippines. Both boxers dished out and received heavy punishment. Ali won the fight when Frazier failed to answer the bell for the 15th round. After 14 rounds over which the judges might have found it difficult to declare a winner, Frazier's trainer stopped him from coming out of his corner in the last round, because Frazier's one good eye was swollen to the point of closing. At this point, Ali's legs crumpled from under him and he collapsed to the canvas. Would Ali have lasted the final round?

When they fought, Ali was heavier than Frazier by a handful of pounds. But Ali had big height and reach advantages. Ali was taller than Frazier by 3.5 inches (6'3" - 5'11.5"). And Ali's reach was an astounding 8.5 inches longer than Frazier's (82" to 73.5"). Throughout his career, Ali had been able to damage his opponents with a left jab that exploited his tremendous reach. And with his opponents kept at a long arm's length, Ali could (famously) sway back to avoid a punch. Frank Lotierzo has argued that Larry Holmes, with exceptional reach and jab, could have troubled Ali in his prime. Frazier could not reach Ali with a jab, and had worked with his trainer to invent his own bobbing and weaving style to get close enough.

Ali had more wins (56, 37 knockouts) than Joe (32, 27 knockouts). However, wins against journeymen hardly count. Losses are more informative. Frazier was beaten only by legends: Ali (twice) and Foreman (twice). Foreman was a huge brute of a man, whose physical advantages overhelmed Frazier. Ali was beaten by five opponents including non-legends Norton, Spinks, and Berbick. Ali's rematch win against Norton has been disputed. And when Ali beat Foreman, finally coming off the ropes to land a knock-out blow against an exhausted man, there was a touch of luck about it.

Ali was surely the greatest some ways: an amazing athlete, blessed with tremendous physical attributes and tremendous skill. One has to wonder what Frazier could have done with Ali's height and reach, and two good eyes. And the fact is that Ali was beaten in his prime by Frazier.


Did Lyle write this article? ;D

no bollocks. we never really witnessed ali's prime cos of his ban. but at the time of the cleveland williams fight it had got to be close to the best of ali.

No, I don't waste my time explaining the obvious

(PRIME Ali, started with the first Liston fight, it just lasted for fucking ever)

This guy's just a massive Frasier fan, likes to point out his physical disadvantages without explalaining that styles make fighters, and styles are often determined by physique and stature. Being 6' 3" wouldn't have the slightest advantage for you if you were using frasier's particularstyle of fighting and ducking under the jab.
Ali was certainly not at is elusive best after his comeback, Bonavena wouldn't have layed a single glove on him four years earlier. That being said he was still very very good and was very capable of adapting to any situation, so we shouldn't take anything away from Frasier for an excellent performance and win.

The main thing in this article that proves the guy is not thinking impartially is the way he bring's into the equation Ali's losses to Berbick and Spinks to prove that Frasier was better. Nothing needs to be said about the merit of that statement.

Trevor Berbick? Spinks? why is he mentioning that with regards to Ali's prime? Norton deserves a lot of credit and wether or not Alis Jaw was broken early on by one shot and swung the fight is very debatable.

The Jury is also still out on wether Ali let Spinks win first time round so that he could make histroy by regaining his title.