ground and pound

tell me if i'm wrong but my understanding is that the ground and pound is a bjj thing. i think people get confused and think that bjj is all submissions and ground and pound is an mma thing. but judo has most of the submissions too. i think what makes bjj special is the focus on positioning. guards and sweeps and whatnot. and so ground and pound is bjj because bjj fighters know how to position themselves into side control or mount and then pound down on the person, or play defense with the same skills. so because hughs beat gracie with bjj, i don't really think it was bjj that failed gracie. i think gracie was just beat by a superior athlete, also maybe a little evolution of bjj.
not sure about that though because i didn't see the fight, i just read about it.
but i know there is a lot of evolution taking place in bjj with eddie bravo and his school and others. also, i've heard a few people allude that royce is the athletic runt out of his brothers.
so what do you think about that? i started this conversation before with someone but never finished it.
for a little input check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT3sn...0jitsu%20beach
sorry this is so long winded but i wanted to say that there are some things in this video that i don't agree with. for example, the street efective argument. i didn't see the guy on the bottom bite gracie ;D so how effective is it with no rules? who knows. i also don't think that the best way for a small fighter is to close the gap, anyone can land a lucky shot. i learned growing up that if you're bigger, take him down! also...well, i don't agree with most of what he says although i do bjj but there it is
tell me what you think. thanks

I've always felt that Ground and Pounders were guys like Tito, Matt Hughes, Coleman etc that use their wrestling experience, tremendous strength and athleticism to get their opponent to the matt and beat them senseless. Obviously the Gracie's have shown over the years that an opponent that has no BJJ training is very susceptible to a submission regardless of weight advantage. It seems rare now days in MMA to see top fighters that are true submission artists. They all have training in it and if an opponent makes a mistake can submit him but you rarely see a fighter consistantly looking to finish a guy with a submission. Only noguiera from pride really comes to mind. BJJ's real asset is the abilty to fight from the bottom and win. All fighters train in it but with the evolutoin of MMA it is not necessary to be a great BJJ artist just good enough to defend against it and escape.

A good friend of mine (a real tough mofo with TONS of training) were tlaing this last night. His feeling, train a boxer to defend against kicks (with some basics in other disciplines of course) and he'd dominate.

Van, you're a boxer too. Just agree with me! ;D

so are you saying that all you need to to have to be a great ground and pound guy is a greco roman wrestling and strength? so you think that bjj and the ground and pound strategy have no relation.
as for winning from the bottom if we're talking about being on the bottom side of a ground and pound -- meaning from the bottom side of mount or side control, i know of no submissions from those positions. so i went to bjj.org because they have a list of submissions and they have none either.
what is it that you do by the way

ground and pound is mostly linked to wrestling is it not? Controlling people on the ground.

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Originally Posted by Munky

ground and pound is mostly linked to wrestling is it not? Controlling people on the ground.

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i guess so. i never wrestled. i wish i would have though just for the understanding of body dynamics at an early age. but i think the same can be said about bjj. contolling people on the ground that is
but i really can't say because i can't watch a fight or think back to one and point out greco roman takedowns or techniques, but what about guard passes. that doesn't exist in wresling? people don't apply gaurds right?

BJJ is mainly about fighting off your back and submissions, while wrestling is the slams, top control and GnP.

There is no guard in wrestling, because I'm pretty sure it would be considered a pin (or at least make insanely easy to be pinned).

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Originally Posted by athlete.not.fighter

so are you saying that all you need to to have to be a great ground and pound guy is a greco roman wrestling and strength? so you think that bjj and the ground and pound strategy have no relation.
as for winning from the bottom if we're talking about being on the bottom side of a ground and pound -- meaning from the bottom side of mount or side control, i know of no submissions from those positions. so i went to bjj.org because they have a list of submissions and they have none either.
what is it that you do by the way

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No I'm not saying to be a good GNP only requires wrestling exp and strength. My point was that alot of the classic GNP guys have top notch wrestling backgrounds. This is b/c there wrestling experience helps with the takedowns and takedown defense and controling their opponents body. My experience is that grecoroman and freestyle wrestlers aren't taught submissions that deal with choking or joint manipulation. I agree that GNP and BJJ are related but have some very distinct differences. My BJJ training has taught me alot about how to improve my body position, how to maintain my dominate position and how to submit my opponent from many positions. Namely how to effectively grapple with my opponent in my guard. I'm sure some of the guys on this forum with more BJJ exp than I can talk about BJJ takedowns but my instructor uses his wrestling and judo exp to teach us takedowns. The long and short of it is a good wrestling background is going to aid in an effective GNP game but one must be somewhat trained in BJJ if only to know how to not get submitted whilst in the guard.

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

A good friend of mine (a real tough mofo with TONS of training) were tlaing this last night. His feeling, train a boxer to defend against kicks (with some basics in other disciplines of course) and he'd dominate.

Van, you're a boxer too. Just agree with me! ;D

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I dont know Von...First of all how much training are we talking about here. I work on double leg takedowns and defense all the time but one of training partners who wrestled collegiatly puts me on my back 75% of the time. Plus I've just noticed that I have to use a very different striking style when I'm boxing than when I'm doing MMA sparring. Ofcourse it doesn't help that I'm built like a smaller version of David Tua and the reflexes of Botha...Thank god for a granite chin and a great left hook! When I box b/c of my short reach I try to use alot of head movement and tight guard to get inside, but this style is very counterproductive in MMA. I either get put on my a$$ or tied up in a clinch and eat a knee. Unfortunately at 5/10 and 205 my opponents are usually much taller with alot more reach. A good boxer is going to be dangerous but we are still talking about a total change in fighting style and training. After two years of submission grappling training I still feel like I'm a total rookie.

good answers
good elaboration on my loaded question ^-^

GnP was mainly instilled into MMA by Mark Coleman. Prior to him most wrestlers, and even some today would take their opponents down with ease and control them but cud not finish them off. Mark Coleman, Randleman, Kerr were the first wrestlers to GnP. GnP is to finish ur opponent off by just raining down on them.

BJJ would maybe throw punches from Mount to set up submissions..ie chokes and so on but never been to dominant or effective when it comes to GnP. BJJ guys like Nog fight defensively against GnP fighters and wait for the right moment to slap on a submission.

Emelianenko is prob one of the few complete MMA fighters who has mixed GnP and Submissions effectively. Even against Mark Coleman he fought a defensive fight (ie fighting off his back with a closed gaurd) and when Coleman began raining down blows he slapped a submission on. And against Nog he totally dismantled him with GnP and avoided the submission attempts by Nog.

But basically the thread starters Q, GnP is more of a Wrestlers thing..not BJJ. BJJ like i said might throw coupla punches to make the fighter give his arm up or expose the throat to slap a choke on.