For those who are not certain about jimmy wilde...

With the never ending debate on who was the grestest off all time i thought i should share this read about jimmy wilde who surly is up there with anyone - for along time the ring called jimmy the greatest p4p fighter ever, and most modern day p4p lists done by the ring, ESPEN and others all seem to start a few years after jimmy retired.

http://www.johnnyowen.com/jimmy_wilde.html

Jimmy Wilde was born 15th May, 1892 in Quakers Yard, Merthyr Tydfil. At the age of twelve his family moved to Tylorstown, Rhondda where Jimmy began his working life in the coal mines there. Working in the coal mines built up Wilde's amazing strength for he never weighed more than 108 pounds for any of his fights (his usual weight being around 100 pounds - he never made 8 stone in his boxing career). His physical appearance was extremely deceptive, although so small, pale and frail looking Jimmy Wilde possessed immense courage, blindingly fast hands, knowledge of his chosen art, a punch that many feather/lightweights would envy and perfect timing -using his opponents momentum against them. Pound for pound he is undisputedly one of the most devastating punchers ever to grace a boxing ring, the greatest flyweight of all time and quite possibly the greatest fighter of all time.

At the age of 16 Jimmy began fighting in boxing booths. It is estimated that he fought anywhere in the region of between 500 - 1000 fights when including the bouts he engaged in during these boxing booth days. The booth fights would hone Jimmy's skills and begin his legendary status. For he fought hundreds of opponents, mostly all of which were several stones (1 stone = 14lbs) heavier than himself, and indeed fought as many as 25 opponents in one day!! For a day in the boxing booths Jimmy could earn the equivalent to a weeks wages in the coal mines.

After building a fantastic reputation for himself in the boxing booths of Wales, Jimmy had his first professional contest against Les Williams in a three round no decision. He then embarked on a series of wins that would later establish him as a legend of the fight game. Notable victories - and there were many - included an eighteenth round knockout of Billy Padden to take the British 98lb championship, a 6 round K.O. of Frenchman Eugene Husson and wins over world title claimants Sid Smith and Joe Symonds (Symonds had previously beaten Percy Jones - the first Welshman to claim a world title). Wilde remained unbeaten for four years and a total of 101 fights ! (including no decisions). They came, they saw and in the vast majority of cases they were knocked out !

Challenging for the British & European flyweight titles, in his 102nd contest, Jimmy Wilde tasted defeat for the first time after his corner threw in the towel in the 17th round against Scotland's Tancy Lee. Wilde had been ill just prior to the fight and was exhausted when his corner threw the towel in to signal the end of the contest. Afterward Jimmy instructed his corner to NEVER throw the towel in again - no matter what. Tancy Lee had stayed away from Wilde's power punches while landing his own and establishing his dominance. Jimmy did not fight for four months after this defeat, by his own standards this was an extraordinary length of time.

Once back in the ring he returned to his winning ways. 19 contests brought 19 wins before Wilde finally got Tancy Lee to face him again. There was to be no repeat win for the Scotsman as the Welsh 'Mighty Atom' scored repeatedly with devastating body punches to end the fight in eleven rounds, thereby avenging his earlier defeat and taking the British & European flyweight titles.

During the run of 19 wins Jimmy had met and beaten Joe Symonds, for the second time, by way of a 12th round K.O. At the time, 1916, Symonds was regarded in Britain as the World Flyweight Champion. Another claimant to the World flyweight title was Johnny Rosner, but he too succumbed to the power of the 'Mighty Atom' as he was defeated in eleven rounds. However, Jimmy was still not universally recognised as World Champion until later that same year.

Jimmy Wilde's destiny was fulfilled when on 18th December 1916 he became the first officially recognised World Flyweight Champion by defeating Young Zulu Kid, of America. Zulu Kid was 3 inches shorter than Wilde and could not match his speed and power, resulting in a battering for the 11 rounds the contest lasted.

During the First World War, Jimmy Wilde served as a Sergeant Instructor fighting professionally only twice in 1917 and three times in 1918. One of these fights was against Joe Conn, who was the leading contender for the British featherweight title. Putting on a tremendous performance Jimmy ko'd his featherweight opponent in twelve rounds. His first contest after the Great War was against Joe Lynch who took a hammering for 15 rounds before Jimmy was declared the points winner. Joe Lynch later went on to beat Pete Herman to become World Bantamweight Champion.

Wilde went to America in 1919, and for almost a year, he toured the States beating an assortment of mainly much heavier opponents. The Americans grew to love Wilde and to this day he is revered by fight fans Stateside. Gene Tunney said of Jimmy Wilde, "He is the greatest fighter I ever saw". In 1959 Jimmy Wilde was inducted into the American Boxing Hall of Fame.

By 1921, Jimmy Wilde was 28 years old, had fought in hundreds of contests (possibly up to a thousand including booth fights) against bigger men and had held his world title for four years. Now he was to suffer only his third defeat (in 128 fights) when matched in a non-title fight against Pete Herman, who weighed in at 121 pounds to Jimmy's 108 pounds.

Herman, had lost his World Bantamweight title in his last contest. A rumour circulating was that Herman did not want to risk his title against the incomparable Welshman; but was confident of winning it back upon returning to America. Pete Herman was an accomplished, clever boxer who also packed quite a punch. The weight difference for once was a telling factor against Wilde. Although he had built up a substantial points lead by taking the fight to Herman it was obvious that Wilde was no longer the force of old, quite simply the bigger man was proving too much for Wilde in the latter rounds. Round seventeen saw Jimmy visit the canvas twice prompting the referee to step in to halt the fight.

Pete Herman, did indeed go on to regain the World Bantamweight title.

Young Jennings was beaten by Wilde for the third time the following month but now the accumulation of so many fights were taking their toll on the brilliant Welsh boxer resulting in his retirement for over 2 years.

With the prospect of a big pay day (£13,000) Wilde returned to the ring in 1923 to defend his world title against Francisco Guilledo, of the Philippines - who boxed under the name of Pancho Villa. The fight took place at the Polo Grounds, New York. Jimmy Wilde was a 31 year old champion of over six years standing but was now in serious decline, about to face a 22 year old, hard punching, all action type of fighter in Villa.

The fight was over in 7 rounds with Wilde taking a fierce hammering from the youthful challenger. At the bell to end the second round Wilde dropped his arms and turned to go to his corner when Villa landed with a heavy blow to the champion's jaw. Though badly concussed Wilde came out for the third round - clearly in no fit state to continue. The Mighty Atom fought bravely on; but now the odds were insurmountable for the incomparable little Welshman. Round after round Villa punished Wilde; but Jimmy would not give up. Displaying immense courage Jimmy Wilde battled on until finally, unable to see out of either eye and with his face a bloody mess he was counted out in the seventh.

Jimmy Wilde had fought one of the greatest battles ever witnessed in a championship fight. Not surprisingly he announced his retirement from the ring after the Villa loss, only his fourth defeat in 149 contests

Jimmy Wilde is a legend. 'The Ghost With A Hammer In His Hand' was inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame in 1959; he was also inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1990. In a 13 year career he lost only 4 of 149 fights. He is, without doubt, the greatest flyweight of all time. The answer to the question, 'Who is the greatest fighter of all time?' will provide many different answers from different people. Jimmy Wilde is certainly one of the greatest, quite possibly THE GREATEST.

He was a good fighter but imo defnately not in the top 10 or even 20 of all time. He really never beat a great fighter and that did his legacy no jusice. He could have been an all time great though if he fought better comp throughout his career

http://www.johnnyowen.com/Rpts/Wilde/villa_letter.html

Jimmy Wilde was undoubtedly one of the greatest pound for pound fighters in history. For those who say he never really beat anyone of note.... Joe Lynch was a world ranked bantamweight, as was Memphis Pal Moore... Joe Conn was a world ranked featherweight.... all of whom Wilde conceded at least a stone to.. and when you only weigh 6st 10lb (94 lb) that is one hell of a percentage of your bodyweight. The men he lost to (Lee, Moore, Sharkey, Herman and Villa) were due to; illness (Lee), bad refereeing (Moore), excessive weight difference/inactivity (Herman), and inactivity/old age (Villa). The only defeat that can be considered genuine was the loss to Jack Sharkey and that was only a newspaper decision (although Wilde readily concedes that he lost the fight). If anybody can give me the name of a fighter who has a better record and knockout ratio than Jimmy Wilde I will be glad to hear from them.

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Originally Posted by Dav

Jimmy Wilde was undoubtedly one of the greatest pound for pound fighters in history. For those who say he never really beat anyone of note.... Joe Lynch was a world ranked bantamweight, as was Memphis Pal Moore... Joe Conn was a world ranked featherweight.... all of whom Wilde conceded at least a stone to.. and when you only weigh 6st 10lb (94 lb) that is one hell of a percentage of your bodyweight. The men he lost to (Lee, Moore, Sharkey, Herman and Villa) were due to; illness (Lee), bad refereeing (Moore), excessive weight difference/inactivity (Herman), and inactivity/old age (Villa). The only defeat that can be considered genuine was the loss to Jack Sharkey and that was only a newspaper decision (although Wilde readily concedes that he lost the fight). If anybody can give me the name of a fighter who has a better record and knockout ratio than Jimmy Wilde I will be glad to hear from them.

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Have you ever seen him fight?? Anyone??.... By all accounts he was a great p4p fighter, and his story really is an amazing one, as if what he achieved... But if there is no footage available of him, or anyone he ever fought/beat... THen how can anyone even pretend to say he was the greatest p4p anything? How can you compare his boxing ability to anyone of which there is footage?? It's just not possible to determine that.. Let alone the fact that the sport was in it's early stages and has evolved tenfold since those days..

Yes Jimmy Wilde v Ricardo Lopez is one of my dream fights , my grandfather gave me a pair of gloves Jimmy Wilde wore for a fight , as u might guess they are in a glass case pride of place :)

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Dav

Jimmy Wilde was undoubtedly one of the greatest pound for pound fighters in history. For those who say he never really beat anyone of note.... Joe Lynch was a world ranked bantamweight, as was Memphis Pal Moore... Joe Conn was a world ranked featherweight.... all of whom Wilde conceded at least a stone to.. and when you only weigh 6st 10lb (94 lb) that is one hell of a percentage of your bodyweight. The men he lost to (Lee, Moore, Sharkey, Herman and Villa) were due to; illness (Lee), bad refereeing (Moore), excessive weight difference/inactivity (Herman), and inactivity/old age (Villa). The only defeat that can be considered genuine was the loss to Jack Sharkey and that was only a newspaper decision (although Wilde readily concedes that he lost the fight). If anybody can give me the name of a fighter who has a better record and knockout ratio than Jimmy Wilde I will be glad to hear from them.

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Have you ever seen him fight?? Anyone??.... By all accounts he was a great p4p fighter, and his story really is an amazing one, as if what he achieved... But if there is no footage available of him, or anyone he ever fought/beat... THen how can anyone even pretend to say he was the greatest p4p anything? How can you compare his boxing ability to anyone of which there is footage?? It's just not possible to determine that.. Let alone the fact that the sport was in it's early stages and has evolved tenfold since those days..

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I'm in between you guys,I didn't actually know much about an of the opponents which you listed nor the reasons for his losses so thanks for that and P4P,I have about 3/4 of hi fights. He was a very good fighter,an offensive whirlwind with good speed and if he's fighting guys that outweigh him by that much,thats amazing!! Thats what makes evaluating fighters from the past' ranking P4P wise. Not only did they fight many many more times,but they also fought guys who outweighed them by ALOT more! They used to have to wait a long long time for title shots, and even when they used to win titles,they would have so many non title defences.

CC for the articles,I recall making a thread about him before and I managed to find a few fights of his. I don't think I'd call him the greatest of all time though.

To P4Pking - yes I have seen him fight - I have footage of him in 4 of his fights (ironically 2 of these were ones he lost!!). You have to be very careful arguing about the greatest P4P as you can easily get into a situation where you argue whether blue is a better colour than red... i.e. there is no real 'answer' just opinions. I accept that with his career being so long ago, and with so little footage available, it is difficult to gauge just how good he was. In such cases you have to read as much as you can and listen to what people who were there at the time said about him. Nat Fliescher rated him very highly... No. 1 flyweight of all time. The patron and management at the Home of Boxing in the early 1900s (the National Sporting Club) rated him at the very top (and Peggy Bettinson did not suffer fools gladly!!), and Gene Tunney said of him "He is the greatest fighter I ever saw". I have a documentary on Wilde where the narrator states that a poll was conducted during the 1964 Olympic games in Mexico and the question of the greatest P4P was asked of four of the top boxing writers. Their answer was unanimous... Jimmy Wilde. Also consider that throughout his career, Jimmy fought on average every 8 days (and there was a 2 year gap towards the end!!), often 3 or 4 times a week, sometimes more than once per day. Hand injuries (of which there were many) could not be allowed to get in the way of him earning his pay, so he was often fighting whilst carrying injuries. I rest my case m'lud!!

To Dark Lord Al - please get in touch as I would love to hear more about the gloves you have. I have seen 2 pairs of Wilde's gloves (one for sale on Ebay!!! - and one which was donated by a family member to the British Boxing Board of Control). I have many many cuttings, photographs, information on Jimmy Wilde that I am collecting for a biography and am always interested in learning more. By the way - did you know that Ricardo Lopez will be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastota in a few weeks time?

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Originally Posted by Dav

To P4Pking - yes I have seen him fight - I have footage of him in 4 of his fights (ironically 2 of these were ones he lost!!). You have to be very careful arguing about the greatest P4P as you can easily get into a situation where you argue whether blue is a better colour than red... i.e. there is no real 'answer' just opinions. I accept that with his career being so long ago, and with so little footage available, it is difficult to gauge just how good he was. In such cases you have to read as much as you can and listen to what people who were there at the time said about him. Nat Fliescher rated him very highly... No. 1 flyweight of all time. The patron and management at the Home of Boxing in the early 1900s (the National Sporting Club) rated him at the very top (and Peggy Bettinson did not suffer fools gladly!!), and Gene Tunney said of him "He is the greatest fighter I ever saw". I have a documentary on Wilde where the narrator states that a poll was conducted during the 1964 Olympic games in Mexico and the question of the greatest P4P was asked of four of the top boxing writers. Their answer was unanimous... Jimmy Wilde. Also consider that throughout his career, Jimmy fought on average every 8 days (and there was a 2 year gap towards the end!!), often 3 or 4 times a week, sometimes more than once per day. Hand injuries (of which there were many) could not be allowed to get in the way of him earning his pay, so he was often fighting whilst carrying injuries. I rest my case m'lud!!

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Wow,excellent post brother. Cool Click number 1 on me ;D :D 8)

By the way,which fights do you have?

Welcome to the board dav have your second CC on me... some great posts already... started this thread longgg ago, it snice to see someone like your self with a hell of alot more knowlage on jimmy than i have posting;)

Thanks for the +ve comments guys. The Wilde fights I have on DVD are unfortunately not complete fights - just snippets of maybe a few rounds. I have about 20 seconds of him losing to Tancy Lee, highlights of about 7 rounds of him fighting Joe Symmonds (Boxers series No. 33 - Great Britons) and what was supposed to be the whole of the Pancho Villa fight but when it arrived I noticed that it started somewhere in the 3rd round. I was keen to see the 'foul' blow at the end of round 2 - but obviously this was cut for some reason. There is also some footage of him sparring on a documentary I have called 'Fighting Class' which was braodcast in the early 1980s on the Welsh ITV channel HTV (this was a series on Welsh boxers and also featured Freddie Welsh and Jim Driscoll). As I said earlier, I am currently writing a biography of Jimmy Wilde and have spent many years collecting information such as newspaper reports, magazine articles and books etc... if anybody has any information to share please get in touch - my email details are on my profile. I am new to this site, but have already mnoticed from what I am reading that you guys certainly know your boxing!! Excellent stuff.