For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
No one is disagreeing thaqt marciano fought easier competition than some but he remained undefeated in this field. Let's look at other all time greats (and boxers some may consider ATGs) that SHOULD have went undefeated.
The Posterchild for my point will be Lennox Lewis: 2 losses
loss to hasim rahman by ko. Come on are you serious? You're gonna be considered one of the best in history on you've got this guy in your loss column?
loss to oliver mccall by ko. Yeah you can see it was a bs stoppage but i got a better idea, Don't fall over.
Now everyone's favorite ukranian warmachine Vitali Klitschko: 2 losses
Loss to chris byrd by forefeit. He quit in a fight he had won absolutely unexcusable.
Loss to lennox by cuts. He outlanded lennox, hes bigger than lennox, he should've turned it up if he wanted to win. Marciano ko'd charles when he was in cut trouble.
My highest ranked boxer in history, Muhammad Ali: 5 losses
Loss to frazier by UD. He took the first frazier fight too lightly and got beat because of it.
Loss to norton by SD. He's a much more talented boxer and he should've beaten him, no excuses.
Loss to spinks by SD. WTF was this? Probably the worst title loss in heavyweight history. How can someone as talented as ali (even a washed up ali) not beat this spinks?
Loss to holmes by corner stoppage. You're not in your prime anymore and calling you washed up would be an injustice to the word. He should've retired but i still believe he should've came thru and won this fight.
Loss to berbick by UD. Aside from the fact ali had parkinsons at this time (if you don't believe me look at the expression on his face now and look at his expression on the fight poster, they look amazingly similar) He had a better career than berbick anhd he should've known it was time to either hang them up or end on a good note.
Last but not least, Mike Tyson: 6 losses
Loss by ko to douglas. I know douglas pulled the best performance of his life outta his a** but still this shouldn't happen. Tyson was the far superior boxer
2 losses to holifield, one by ko one by dq. Holyfield is just a blown up cruiser pouncing on a depleted division. Tyson could move fast and could throw bombs, both losses are unexcusable.
loss to lennox by ko. If rahman can ko him so can tyson.
loss to Danny williams by ko. It was time to either hang it up or end on a good note. how can you drop a fight to this guy?
Loss to kevin mcbride by self stoppage. You know you're not the same fighter before you get in the ring. He's a journeyman and ending a career like this is disgraceful.
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
yes people will always bash marciano for his "oppostion" but hypocriticaly praise joe louis and demspey. joe louis had the same type of oppostion and dempsey had the worse oppostion. when dempsey fought some1 who could actually box--he lost
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
No one is disagreeing thaqt marciano fought easier competition than some but he remained undefeated in this field. Let's look at other all time greats (and boxers some may consider ATGs) that SHOULD have went undefeated.
The Posterchild for my point will be Lennox Lewis: 2 losses
loss to hasim rahman by ko. Come on are you serious? You're gonna be considered one of the best in history on you've got this guy in your loss column?
loss to oliver mccall by ko. Yeah you can see it was a bs stoppage but i got a better idea, Don't fall over.
Now everyone's favorite ukranian warmachine Vitali Klitschko: 2 losses
Loss to chris byrd by forefeit. He quit in a fight he had won absolutely unexcusable.
Loss to lennox by cuts. He outlanded lennox, hes bigger than lennox, he should've turned it up if he wanted to win. Marciano ko'd charles when he was in cut trouble.
My highest ranked boxer in history, Muhammad Ali: 5 losses
Loss to frazier by UD. He took the first frazier fight too lightly and got beat because of it.
Loss to norton by SD. He's a much more talented boxer and he should've beaten him, no excuses.
Loss to spinks by SD. WTF was this? Probably the worst title loss in heavyweight history. How can someone as talented as ali (even a washed up ali) not beat this spinks?
Loss to holmes by corner stoppage. You're not in your prime anymore and calling you washed up would be an injustice to the word. He should've retired but i still believe he should've came thru and won this fight.
Loss to berbick by UD. Aside from the fact ali had parkinsons at this time (if you don't believe me look at the expression on his face now and look at his expression on the fight poster, they look amazingly similar) He had a better career than berbick anhd he should've known it was time to either hang them up or end on a good note.
Last but not least, Mike Tyson: 6 losses
Loss by ko to douglas. I know douglas pulled the best performance of his life outta his a** but still this shouldn't happen. Tyson was the far superior boxer
2 losses to holifield, one by ko one by dq. Holyfield is just a blown up cruiser pouncing on a depleted division. Tyson could move fast and could throw bombs, both losses are unexcusable.
loss to lennox by ko. If rahman can ko him so can tyson.
loss to Danny williams by ko. It was time to either hang it up or end on a good note. how can you drop a fight to this guy?
Loss to kevin mcbride by self stoppage. You know you're not the same fighter before you get in the ring. He's a journeyman and ending a career like this is disgraceful.
Your taking all bad points from all boxers you mentioned anyone could do that but its not true Marciano fought ok opposition not greatest because most of guys he beat were washed up or old but i still respect Marciano no doubt.
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
No one is disagreeing thaqt marciano fought easier competition than some but he remained undefeated in this field. Let's look at other all time greats (and boxers some may consider ATGs) that SHOULD have went undefeated.
The Posterchild for my point will be Lennox Lewis: 2 losses
loss to hasim rahman by ko. Come on are you serious? You're gonna be considered one of the best in history on you've got this guy in your loss column?
loss to oliver mccall by ko. Yeah you can see it was a bs stoppage but i got a better idea, Don't fall over.
Now everyone's favorite ukranian warmachine Vitali Klitschko: 2 losses
Loss to chris byrd by forefeit. He quit in a fight he had won absolutely unexcusable.
Loss to lennox by cuts. He outlanded lennox, hes bigger than lennox, he should've turned it up if he wanted to win. Marciano ko'd charles when he was in cut trouble.
My highest ranked boxer in history, Muhammad Ali: 5 losses
Loss to frazier by UD. He took the first frazier fight too lightly and got beat because of it.
Loss to norton by SD. He's a much more talented boxer and he should've beaten him, no excuses.
Loss to spinks by SD. WTF was this? Probably the worst title loss in heavyweight history. How can someone as talented as ali (even a washed up ali) not beat this spinks?
Loss to holmes by corner stoppage. You're not in your prime anymore and calling you washed up would be an injustice to the word. He should've retired but i still believe he should've came thru and won this fight.
Loss to berbick by UD. Aside from the fact ali had parkinsons at this time (if you don't believe me look at the expression on his face now and look at his expression on the fight poster, they look amazingly similar) He had a better career than berbick anhd he should've known it was time to either hang them up or end on a good note.
Last but not least, Mike Tyson: 6 losses
Loss by ko to douglas. I know douglas pulled the best performance of his life outta his a** but still this shouldn't happen. Tyson was the far superior boxer
2 losses to holifield, one by ko one by dq. Holyfield is just a blown up cruiser pouncing on a depleted division. Tyson could move fast and could throw bombs, both losses are unexcusable.
loss to lennox by ko. If rahman can ko him so can tyson.
loss to Danny williams by ko. It was time to either hang it up or end on a good note. how can you drop a fight to this guy?
Loss to kevin mcbride by self stoppage. You know you're not the same fighter before you get in the ring. He's a journeyman and ending a career like this is disgraceful.
Your taking all bad points from all boxers you mentioned anyone could do that but its not true Marciano fought ok opposition not greatest because most of guys he beat were washed up or old but i still respect Marciano no doubt.
I'm just saying if marciano lost a fight he'd be grilled for it but there's been others who could've pulled it off but they dropped the ball.
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
I believe people put WAY too much emphasis on an 0. Yes, its a very admirable feat that Rocky managed to go 49-0. Its admirable whether his opposition was lackluster or not.
But an "0" IMO is not something that should be used to give a fighter an edge over other great fighters. An 0 is great, but it should ultimately be the wins and the observable skill that is the basis in which we rank and judge fighters. I mean what if Valuev retired before the Chagaev fight at 46-0. Would people be calling him an all time great? No way, because his observable skill wasnt all that and he didn't beat any great fighters.
As a big fan of the Rock's it pains me to always be arguing against him, but I do believe he was very fortunate to have been faced with HUGE named while they were out of their prime and lackluster opposition.If he was fight 10-15 years before or 10-15 years later than what he was, IMO he would have NOT retired undefeated.
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
yes people will always bash marciano for his "oppostion" but hypocriticaly praise joe louis and demspey. joe louis had the same type of oppostion and dempsey had the worse oppostion. when dempsey fought some1 who could actually box--he lost
Are you saying that Georges Carpentier couldn't box?
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
No one is disagreeing thaqt marciano fought easier competition than some but he remained undefeated in this field. Let's look at other all time greats (and boxers some may consider ATGs) that SHOULD have went undefeated.
The Posterchild for my point will be Lennox Lewis: 2 losses
loss to hasim rahman by ko. Come on are you serious? You're gonna be considered one of the best in history on you've got this guy in your loss column?
loss to oliver mccall by ko. Yeah you can see it was a bs stoppage but i got a better idea, Don't fall over.
Now everyone's favorite ukranian warmachine Vitali Klitschko: 2 losses
Loss to chris byrd by forefeit. He quit in a fight he had won absolutely unexcusable.
Loss to lennox by cuts. He outlanded lennox, hes bigger than lennox, he should've turned it up if he wanted to win. Marciano ko'd charles when he was in cut trouble.
My highest ranked boxer in history, Muhammad Ali: 5 losses
Loss to frazier by UD. He took the first frazier fight too lightly and got beat because of it.
Loss to norton by SD. He's a much more talented boxer and he should've beaten him, no excuses.
Loss to spinks by SD. WTF was this? Probably the worst title loss in heavyweight history. How can someone as talented as ali (even a washed up ali) not beat this spinks?
Loss to holmes by corner stoppage. You're not in your prime anymore and calling you washed up would be an injustice to the word. He should've retired but i still believe he should've came thru and won this fight.
Loss to berbick by UD. Aside from the fact ali had parkinsons at this time (if you don't believe me look at the expression on his face now and look at his expression on the fight poster, they look amazingly similar) He had a better career than berbick anhd he should've known it was time to either hang them up or end on a good note.
Last but not least, Mike Tyson: 6 losses
Loss by ko to douglas. I know douglas pulled the best performance of his life outta his a** but still this shouldn't happen. Tyson was the far superior boxer
2 losses to holifield, one by ko one by dq. Holyfield is just a blown up cruiser pouncing on a depleted division. Tyson could move fast and could throw bombs, both losses are unexcusable.
loss to lennox by ko. If rahman can ko him so can tyson.
loss to Danny williams by ko. It was time to either hang it up or end on a good note. how can you drop a fight to this guy?
Loss to kevin mcbride by self stoppage. You know you're not the same fighter before you get in the ring. He's a journeyman and ending a career like this is disgraceful.
Your taking all bad points from all boxers you mentioned anyone could do that but its not true Marciano fought ok opposition not greatest because most of guys he beat were washed up or old but i still respect Marciano no doubt.
I'm just saying if marciano lost a fight he'd be grilled for it but there's been others who could've pulled it off but they dropped the ball.
But these other guys--Ali at least--beat a lot of guys that were much better than anyone Marciano ever fought. So he gets some slack for having a few off-nights. Marciano would deserve less slack because a loss would have actually called into question his basic level of talent--since he never beat anyone great (Louis was obviously well past it).
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
No one is disagreeing thaqt marciano fought easier competition than some but he remained undefeated in this field. Let's look at other all time greats (and boxers some may consider ATGs) that SHOULD have went undefeated.
The Posterchild for my point will be Lennox Lewis: 2 losses
loss to hasim rahman by ko. Come on are you serious? You're gonna be considered one of the best in history on you've got this guy in your loss column?
loss to oliver mccall by ko. Yeah you can see it was a bs stoppage but i got a better idea, Don't fall over.
Now everyone's favorite ukranian warmachine Vitali Klitschko: 2 losses
Loss to chris byrd by forefeit. He quit in a fight he had won absolutely unexcusable.
Loss to lennox by cuts. He outlanded lennox, hes bigger than lennox, he should've turned it up if he wanted to win. Marciano ko'd charles when he was in cut trouble.
My highest ranked boxer in history, Muhammad Ali: 5 losses
Loss to frazier by UD. He took the first frazier fight too lightly and got beat because of it.
Loss to norton by SD. He's a much more talented boxer and he should've beaten him, no excuses.
Loss to spinks by SD. WTF was this? Probably the worst title loss in heavyweight history. How can someone as talented as ali (even a washed up ali) not beat this spinks?
Loss to holmes by corner stoppage. You're not in your prime anymore and calling you washed up would be an injustice to the word. He should've retired but i still believe he should've came thru and won this fight.
Loss to berbick by UD. Aside from the fact ali had parkinsons at this time (if you don't believe me look at the expression on his face now and look at his expression on the fight poster, they look amazingly similar) He had a better career than berbick anhd he should've known it was time to either hang them up or end on a good note.
Last but not least, Mike Tyson: 6 losses
Loss by ko to douglas. I know douglas pulled the best performance of his life outta his a** but still this shouldn't happen. Tyson was the far superior boxer
2 losses to holifield, one by ko one by dq. Holyfield is just a blown up cruiser pouncing on a depleted division. Tyson could move fast and could throw bombs, both losses are unexcusable.
loss to lennox by ko. If rahman can ko him so can tyson.
loss to Danny williams by ko. It was time to either hang it up or end on a good note. how can you drop a fight to this guy?
Loss to kevin mcbride by self stoppage. You know you're not the same fighter before you get in the ring. He's a journeyman and ending a career like this is disgraceful.
Your taking all bad points from all boxers you mentioned anyone could do that but its not true Marciano fought ok opposition not greatest because most of guys he beat were washed up or old but i still respect Marciano no doubt.
I'm just saying if marciano lost a fight he'd be grilled for it but there's been others who could've pulled it off but they dropped the ball.
But these other guys--Ali at least--beat a lot of guys that were much better than anyone Marciano ever fought. So he gets some slack for having a few off-nights. Marciano would deserve less slack because a loss would have actually called into question his basic level of talent--since he never beat anyone great (Louis was obviously well past it).
Ali fought in the best era of boxing and was the best fighter there's no question about that but what about lewis? He avenged 2 losses he never should've had in the first place. Having an off night means you didn't fully prepare for a fight, took it lightly, or just took your paycheck without working too hard for it. I had to throw in really high caliber names like ali's to show how ridiculous it is to try an critisize someone who did great things. Yes marciano fought some soft competition but everyone outside of ali's era fought the same bunch of bums except they had different names. Marciano was undersized even for the era he fought in and he still went undefeated. Never excepting defeat says something about a persaon and they should be respected for that.
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
I think we are missing the point here, guys.
To be World Heavyweight Champion (as opposed to some belt holder) is the elite of the elite. The guys we are talking about are being spoken about, like Dempsey, is still being remembered 90 years after he fought. These are immortals.
These guys were fantastic, GREAT, fighters. 49 and 0 is phenomenal - any fucker can lose early in their career, any heavyweight can suffer a one punch knockout, anybody can have a bad day in the office.
We, as real fans of the sport, should be remembering these guys for their VICTORIES as it is that which separates them from the rest. Constantly decrying their supposed weaknesses just means that everybody else must have been absolutely totally useless, and our sport therefore is cheapened.
Do people say Cruyff was shit because he didn't tackle? Do we say maradona was not an ATG because he did not have a right foot?
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
I'm all for Marciano, I just wish his carreer was a few fights longer so we could see him battle Patterson and Liston. Controversy aside that kind of record is no easy feat, imagine if he didn't get up in one of big fights, do you think we'd have so many discussions as we do now? Sure he wasn't a ballerina in the ring but as Rocky said and I'm paraphrasing, "Why Waltz 15 rounds with a guy when you can kayo them in one?"
Anyone mind talking about Julio Cesar Chavez? Didn't he go 81-0 until his draw with Whittaker?
Re: For all those that wanna bash marciano despite his 0, What about other ATGs?
Isn't it possible that some of the guys she fought were actually great fighters until they got sparked by Marciano and maybe didn't get another shot so we don't know anything about them. This was a long time after all.
I'll give you an example. 50 or 60 years from now will anybody get any credit for beating Tua or Gulatta(spelling???). And is anybody going to tell me that these guys were not top notch fighters who could give anybody a tough time in the ring.
The point is it is hard to analyze a 100 year old fighter. He might not have the greatest skills but nither did Tyson and look how highly we rate him. Give Marciano the same opposition as Tyson did and I bet he would have remained undefeated. CC on original poster for fun topic.
