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If you look at any long standing champ,there'll be a guy on the list and youll look at his record,and find yourself saying "Huh,he looks pretty good"then you look at his record,and hes completely tanked after that fight.
A good example Rudi Lubbers,he was 22-1 when he fought Ali
He ended up 29-8
Is the guy exposed?
Mentally damaged?
Whats your opinion on why guys tank like that
Padded record most the time i reckon
See,I dont think soQuote:
Originally Posted by Poom
Another example(Im using Ali at the moment,but you can do it with just about any Champs opponents)Mac Foster
Two wins against CLeveland WIlliams,a win against Zora Foley,only loss a KO to Jerry Quarry
Loses to Ali
And then he goes 2-4 to end his career
There could be so many reasons. Loss of confidence, mismanagement etc. It could be one of them "all of the above" senarios
I was kind of thinking that,but like I said its kind of consistentQuote:
Originally Posted by ghoster
I know their are alot variables,but there are two types who lose a championship bout it seems
The brush themselves off type(Ken Norton)and the guys whose entire career falls apart afterwords
I think it's just to do with record building. Most fighters who show promise are given a nice supply of stiffs to build their records, as Atlas used to say when looking for early opponents for Tyson, 'We'd hold a mirror in front of their face and if no breath steamed it up we knew he was our guy!'.
After they have their big fight and lose they are at least known and in the public eye and so will next be offered fights against other young upcoming prospects who their managers want to see if they are ready for the next level.
This inevitably leads to more losses, the odd upset and the fighter becoming a journeyman.
We are seeing it happen in the heavyweight division with Dominic Guin right now. I expect Anthony Hanshaw will probably be an opponent for other name fighters soon and thus will get a few more defeats.
K9 is about to go the same way too.
Look at Bert Cooper Look at Tillis both had promising careers then Cooper ended up with 22 losses and Tillis had plenty aswell also guys like Carl Williams and Tyrell Biggs who were decent hws i think sometimes its due to boxers padding there record with bums or its that they were in good era and couldn't quite cut it.
most of Trinidad's opponants
I personally don't think it's just 1 thing.
I think it's a mixture of different things 1st loss, mentally beaten some change trainers right away, paded records, bad management I mean the list goes on and on.
Add to this a step up in quality of opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Wilfredo Rivera was undefeated untill he met Whitaker x2, DLH, Mosley, Vargas and after five nearly straight losses your just not that much into it any more.
Fernando Vargas undefeated untill he met Trinidad, DLH, Mosley x2 all of a sudden he turns into a shot fighter in his twenties. Just too many beatdowns in a row.
It's the same thing with the lesser known fighters. Only that it happends at a lower level. Once a fighter reaches a level where they can get beat, most of them get stuck there. They keep trying to brake through that level and keep fighting at that level of competition, but they are just not good enough to break through and they end up loosing most fights untill they just loose interest and loose that hunger they once had.
I think careers go south for the following reasons
1. Fighter is given low quality opposition and then moved up to quality opponents too fast.
2. Management sets them in with a bad style opponents for their style.
3. The don't fight often enough and get ring rust.
4. They get old.
5. Can't handle the pressure of being on TV.
6. They lose the fire, to keep boxing.
7. They start thinking about money to much and not enough about boxing.
8. Go back to life of thuggery
9. Start partying all the time getting drunk and using drugs (it's ok for the fans, but not professional athletes)
Im going to go with the more complicated there isnt one thing awnser
But its definitly a phenomenon of the sport
Another one,Greg Page,looked for all the world to be a comer,beat Renaldo Snipes,and James Tillis,only loss a decision to Berbick
Loses the title shot to Tim Witherspoon,and the wheels comes off
Goes on to be knocked out by 5-5-1 Mark Willis and decision to 14-13 Artis Pendegrass among others
THough a prime example of a padded record is David"Will Lose For Food" Bostice
I'll be honest I have never heard of Lubbers. For the sake of the thread I took a look at him. And yes he was 22-1 when he went into the Ali fight. I will only respond about him since his name was brought up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The answer to this question in this case is fairly simple IMO. Only 6 of those 22 wins were against guys that had winning records themselves. 8-3, 10-6, 8-5, & 5-4 were four of the six. No disrespect to those guys but that's not gonna get u ready for Ali.
His biggest test & win up to the Bugner loss (his only loss before Ali) was a 42-8 -- 12 year veteran named Del Papa (w 10 rds pts). Might not look so bad until you factor in the fact that Del Papa only fought 4 times (2-2) after their encounter. Del Papa's last 7= 2-5 having been KO'd 2x's. His 2 wins that I referred to were against 11-32 & 4-14 opponents.
After the Ali fight, Lubber's had already been to the mountain top & was matched much tougher. He went 7-6 in his last 13. Losing to opponents with records like 28-1, 11-0, 32-6, & 30-5 (4 of the 6 losses). U get the point. 3 of his 7 wins, vs 9-9, 14-10, & 11-12.
Conclusion= Lubbers was never a world class threat. He was a guy who was obviously matched carefully until he got his shot. Good for him.
Not all will be the same reason as Lubbers. But IMO it usually will not be something as simple as "lost confidence" "mental damage" & definitely not the "exposed" theory.
Lubbers was always the same fighter. For the most part he was actually pretty consistent from the beginning to the end of his career. He beat most guys with losing records & lost to most guys with winning records. IMO this is the case more often than not.
A little long winded for me. I need a break.
Silent that was Spot on Lubbers was not very good cc