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I'm always sceptical but he did have knee surgery and he did enter the Forrest fight with a knee injury. He lost and that is what is most important BUT,being a huge Shogun fan,I'm just hoping he gets back to his best asap. Glad to hear he wasn't lying.
im a huge shogun fan,but seeing him clinging onto forrest legs is pathetic.If he knew he was injured,he should have cancelled it rather than allowing his reputation to be tainted with that embarassing loss.Man! if you see his fights in pride..this guy is vicious and very,very talented.I would never forgive him for losing to a B level fighter.It wasnt the knees that did him...its his conditioning! He gassed as early as the middle stage of the first round.This is a pure a sign of unprofessionalism,accepting a fight for the sake of money.Same with the other pride fighters who wwere there just for the money..except for hendo who really "lost"...Nog,crocop were nowhere in the condition of their pride days.The adjustment from the ring to the octagon is a legit excuse but these guys performed poorly not because of the unfamiliarity with the ufc.They lost purely because they were in such a poor shape which is a shame.Put this in concrete...Most of the ufc fighters especially in the higher division cannot compete with the pride guys...no way...that is why these recent losses by this former (un)pride guys is unacceptable.
Last time I checked Pride was dead and over. Get over it. Pride's fighter's less than stellar performance in the Octagon shows only that steroids were probably a bigger issue in Japan and that the difference in top fighters in the two orgs was not as big a previously thought. Regardless Hendo/Shogun/Crocop/Nog/Werdum/Wandy/Rampage etc are Ultimate Fighters and work for Dana and Zuffa, not Pride. Can't have a rivalry with only one group.
you missed the point,Its not about pride>ufc...i have to mention pride because these fighters are the topguns of that org.The point here is when fighters show up without a sense of decency...they have ceased to be called fighters..rather they have become businessmen.Sad thing is dana knows it and tolerated it.That is why i could never forgive Shogun for selling out.I thought he is a warrior.I hope mma could learn from the mistakes boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Disagree with the highlighted. There are NUMEROUS other factors to take into account such as:Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Getting acclimatised to the cage.
Not taking warm up fights.
Taking the opponent too lightly.
etc etc And also the fact that Anderson Silva and Rampage seem to be doing pretty well,are they sure as heck are Pride fighters.
Gamo, yes Rampage and Anderson have been very successful, but if we compare all of the pride fighters success over the last two years when fighting UFC or former UFC fighters it isn't very good. Herring/Werdum/Fujita's losses maybe aren't that big of a deal, but Mirko/Shogun/Gomi's losses say alot. These were three of the best in their respective divisions. As far as the other factors. I just don't believe that the cage makes that much of a difference. If you are a professional fighter you should be preparing for the cage and rule differences etc etc. Discipline focus and preparation are part of being a great fighter not mutually exclusive. If the merger had gone the other way and UFC fighters were not faring well then we wouldn't hear these excuses only the howling of everyone knew that UFC fighters were garbage the whole time. I love that we are seeing a influx of new and exciting talent into UFC, but I'm so sick and tired of pride nuthuggers/UFC haters making excuses.
Well who is the best UFc fighter? Randy Couture. He has been in a ring for something like 6 fights right? In RINGS and IVC? And he's lost 3 of them. I think that tells you about the difference between a cage and ring. The difference in rules. The fact that PRIDE fighters were over confident. If you don't think these are factors then seriously bro,I don't know what else to say. Sure they SHOULd HAVE prepared but whether they did or not,well,let's just say that all these deranged UFC fans are going overboard saying that PRIDE fighters were overrated etc. Lets wait a year,see how they fare,rather than off a fight or two.
And remember,you're judging those 3 fighters losses,Shogun has only had 1 fight! Look at the sustained success achieved by Anderson and Rampage. Like I said,time will tell,I favour Shogun etc to do much much better than their initial showings.
a knee injury doesn't have anything to do with getting a rear naked choke put on you :)
Hey I can't stand "deranged UFC fans" either. I don't think Pride was overrated one bit. I think what we are seeing is that the quality of the two orgs top fighters was a lot closer than many thought. That being said I won't argue that Pride's stable was much deeper top to bottom. I'll change my statement about the cage somewhat. Yes it takes an adjustment, but we are talking about world class fighters and against what was at least perceived as much weaker opponents. The cage shouldn't have played that much of a crucial role. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remeber any of the Pride fighter losses in the cage or UFC fighters victories in the ring being impacted a lot by the cage or lack of. Maybe elbows played some role in CC's loss to Gonzaga, but not at all to Kongo. As far as Shogun goes my personal opinion (which is completely unfounded) is that not being able to use performance enhancing products caused his stamina issues. I expect him to ultimately succeed, but not at the tremendous level we saw in Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Whilst I'll continue to disagree about Shogun, I think the rest of your post was far more agreeable. I too was dissappointed with Cro Cop(I never used to like him that much but I totally respect him and love watching him fight,he just seems overly arrogant at times). However,his lack of training,his busted up nose etc could have all been factors. Or simply put,he left his heart at PRIDE. Remember,these guys were there for a LONG time,they were ADORED by the fans and it was totally different there,the culture,the show,everything. Things have changed here and for CC,I think he found it difficult to adjust. Maybe he's just getting old. Maybe he does not have the desire to prove himself all over again,I mean going from superstar status to "alsoran(UFC dorks terms,not mine) must have had an effect on him. I hope we see the old Cro Cop,but I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Shogun and the drugs..well I don't know much about drugs but I just don't see Shogun using them. Again time will tell. Sure he should have beaten Forrest,but thats why I posted this. He was NOT himself in that fight, you think it's because of drugs(which is unfounded) and I think it was because his knee was busted,ergo not training fully,ergo out of shape=lost the fight. He gassed EARLY. If anyone shows Shogun,1 thing that stands out is his feoricty. His pace. The man is a monster.
Heck,I,as a mere fan,find it difficult to adjust. Whilst I'm a big MMA fan(albeit a fairly new one), I find things different too. I much preferred the production,the politer,better mannered fans,the commentating,the fight cards of PRIDE compared to the UFC. Alot of fans have felt the same. I would not say I'm a PRIDE nuthugger but I just don't like something about the UFC,I hope it goes over time and I'll still continue to watch it for sure. My point being, it takes time to settle. Anywhere. Professional or not,which is why I found the allegations of the drug use,unfounded and somehat pointless at such an early stage. Sure,if after a few fights,the PRIDE fighters are still doing poorly,then by all means,there must have been somthing different. Time is the key word.
Erm,I'll think you find it does. If you're knee is injured,you're more susceptible to takedowns/chokes etc. If your knee is injured,then you could not train 100%, then your stamina is poor and combined with the knee,takedowns/chokes are again made easier. So I think you'll find it does have an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Crocop,shogun were not beaten,they beat themselves by going into a fight unprepared..Anyways,since the merger is settled.I think ufc should incorporate some of the pride rules.First and foremost,why not make the octagon smaller to encourage more striking and less non-action.(boring ground and pound)The octagon was a gimmick to attract fans in the early struggling days of the ufc,it creates a gladiator like atmosphere apparently to create interest(which has been a succes).By making it smaller,it adapts the action packed can-run-but-cant-hide the ring offers..Another thing is allowing soccer kicks and stomps ,kicking,kneeing while the opponent is on the ground should also be permitted..and lastly,giving out yellow cards as warning for non-action.With these rules incorporated,we would see what a real mma match should be as fighters can truly showcase their talents instead of rules limiting their repertoire.And as a wish,I hope dana will also be less selfish or business liked..for the fans sake...Btw,swallow your ego dana,just go and sign fedor!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mugabi saad
I agree that stomps should be allowed and definitely about the yellow cards. Having gone through some UFC history,there are ALOT of fights where the guys just lay on each other for a LONG LONG time and ref has no power to do anything about it.
I'm on the fence about yellow cards....Yes it is a monetary incentive to press the action. That being said I've been in 8 mma fights and stylistically there were some guys that it didn't matter what I did outside of putting myself at undue risk the fight wasn't going to be real fan friendly. I'm for knees on the ground but I don't like soccer kicks and stomps. I really like the knees b/c it is a real deterrent to double/single leg takedowns.
Yeah but the thing is, Forrest had a shoulder injury going into that fight ;)