Father and Son - 20years of lost potential?

Havn't really said anything about the Hopkins Calzaghe fight just been checking over what people think.

I would say though if this fight had happened years ago Joe may have lost...but he would have been a 100 times better now.B-Hop exposed those weaknesses that everyone knew he had...He could have done with that alot earlier in his career...But,To the victor go the spoils:).

Anyway my thread is regarding Enzo Calzaghe i came to his defence in a post the other day but I cant help but think if Joe had trained with someone who knew boxing he may have been so much better than he is now.

Is this opinion shared by anyone else on the board?

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

I think on Saturday night Enzo showed his lack of true world class experiance he didn't offer Calzaghe a plan B at any time he was shouting and screaming trust me trust me but he was never 100% confident in his own advise.

Old Enzo seems to have totally lost the plot since the trainer accolades have rolled in. I thought he was quite embarrassing on the night, Dean Powell tells him to keep calm at one point as he's shouting like a nutter... also, as Bomp alluded to, Team Hopkins said in the build-up they'd catch Joe coming in when he squares up (the knockdown was virtually identical to the Salem one) so it's surprising someone of his class walked straight into it.

I do believe though it's unfair to say he would have been BETTER if things were done different.

Calzaghe's career and record is magnificent.

I agree with the above, that Calzaghe's success has been due to the unique style he has developed with his father.

When we see a mediocre or unknown trainer do great things with a fighter, its just natural to think "well, Imagine how great they would be with a respected, world class trainer." I think Jermain Taylor's short stint with Manny Steward tells us thats not always the way it works.

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Originally Posted by GodofBoxing

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Naz made an estimated £50m from boxing he made 15 defences in 6 years against former champs present champs and fighters who were good and went on to be champs.He was number 1 featherweight from 1997-2001 and reached Ring magazine P4P#4 or 5.

well if it aint broke dont fix it.... lets not forget who Joe was in the ring with last weekend Hopkins is a legend ;)

as Naz has been brought up i think is is an ideal example of a boxer and Trainer who had a good and successful relationship in him and Ingle... then Naz left him went to top trainer Manny Steward who tatally fucked up his style.

So like i said if it aint broke dont fix it :cool:

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Originally Posted by tysonbruno

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Originally Posted by GodofBoxing

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Naz made an estimated £50m from boxing he made 15 defences in 6 years against former champs present champs and fighters who were good and went on to be champs.He was number 1 featherweight from 1997-2001 and reached Ring magazine P4P#4 or 5.

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er....jc has made 20+ defences, undisputed super middle weight chapion for 10 years, new lightweight champion, definitely top 3 p4p fighter...and basically never lost...

you compare that record with naz then you must be losing your marbles...

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Originally Posted by Saddo

well if it aint broke dont fix it.... lets not forget who Joe was in the ring with last weekend Hopkins is a legend ;)

as Naz has been brought up i think is is an ideal example of a boxer and Trainer who had a good and successful relationship in him and Ingle... then Naz left him went to top trainer Manny Steward who tatally fucked up his style.

So like i said if it aint broke dont fix it :cool:

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Agreed. But I do think it's possible to have input from a more experienced trainer, as long as the chemistry's right and he stays in the background. Taylor did say that they still use some of manny's methods, perhaps if Manny took a secondary role without being overbearing and not actually in the corner during the fights he could have made an improvement on what already works.

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Originally Posted by Bomp

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

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I don't believe that they only watched one Hopkins fight. Joe had clearly watched the fight Hopkins had in Ecuador due to comments he made before the fight. I'm sure they've both sat down and watched endless Hopkins fights together before. They were first planning on fighting him six years ago and I bet they'd seen all his fights before then.

Hopkins can make anybody look awkward, especially a guy fighting in Vegas for the first time at a new weight with a huge reputation to protect, and especially when he knocks him down in the first minute. Calzaghe had to change his strategy after that knockdown because he couldn't afford another one against a boxing grandmaster away from home and still managed to do it. Look what Hopkins did to Winky and Tarver, but Joe managed to beat him despite the knockdown and with all the pressure. He's as good as ever apart from his hands.

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Originally Posted by Tins06

Havn't really said anything about the Hopkins Calzaghe fight just been checking over what people think.

I would say though if this fight had happened years ago Joe may have lost...but he would have been a 100 times better now.B-Hop exposed those weaknesses that everyone knew he had...He could have done with that alot earlier in his career...But,To the victor go the spoils:).

Anyway my thread is regarding Enzo Calzaghe i came to his defence in a post the other day but I cant help but think if Joe had trained with someone who knew boxing he may have been so much better than he is now.

Is this opinion shared by anyone else on the board?

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Joe and Enzo may have the best Father/Son or maybe I should say the most successful Father/Son duo I have seen but I do agree that if there was some outside influences in the camp over the years to adjust a little here and a little there Joe would be twice or 3 times the fighter he is now....

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Bomp

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

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I don't believe that they only watched one Hopkins fight. Joe had clearly watched the fight Hopkins had in Ecuador due to comments he made before the fight. I'm sure they've both sat down and watched endless Hopkins fights together before. They were first planning on fighting him six years ago and I bet they'd seen all his fights before then.

Hopkins can make anybody look awkward, especially a guy fighting in Vegas for the first time at a new weight with a huge reputation to protect, and especially when he knocks him down in the first minute. Calzaghe had to change his strategy after that knockdown because he couldn't afford another one against a boxing grandmaster away from home and still managed to do it. Look what Hopkins did to Winky and Tarver, but Joe managed to beat him despite the knockdown and with all the pressure. He's as good as ever apart from his hands.

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I'm sure he's seen many Hopkins fights, but I doubt he sat down with Enzo for any decent period of time during the build up to actually devise a strategy, and it certainly showed.

I've always been a supporter of Enzo Calzaghe.
He's a man with a great work ethic, dedication to his fighters and the ability to formulate great plans.

However, last Saturday Enzo panicked. In the corner he resorted to shouting and gesticulating. Neither of which benefited Joe's cause.
I think that Enzo was a good trainer, ideal when things were going well, but when the pressure was on he panicked and it was Joe and Joe alone that saved the day.

I also feel he panicked in the corner with Maccarenelli.

He's reputed to be a fiery little guy, fiery is not ideal in boxing.