How would Joe Calzaghe go down in history when he retires? I hoping he beats Jones to cement it but i'm mainly interested in a Yank perspective. They never seem to give our guys any credit:-\
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How would Joe Calzaghe go down in history when he retires? I hoping he beats Jones to cement it but i'm mainly interested in a Yank perspective. They never seem to give our guys any credit:-\
You kidding,I was praying Bruno would beat Tyson.
I dont like Calzeghe for two reasons
He mainly get by on work rate,but if you watch his fights,alot of those shots arent landing clean most of the time. But judges like work rate,and Il;l be the first to say,even if they arent clean power shots,his work rate is great
And the way Warren massaged his career
And even if Im not a fan of his,I know he's going in to the HOF
He'll never get the credit he deserves but if he beats Roy Jones his resume cannot be disputed imo.
To have achived all he's achieved, longest ever super middleweight reign, most ever title defenses, almost the most defenses for any division, completely unbeaten and wins over the two biggest stars of those divisions in Hopkins and Jones of the past 20 years, plus wins over Eubank, Lacy and Kessler make him would make him clearly the greatest British fighter of all time and one of the top 30 or so greatest fighters of all time imo.
If he was American or Mexican he would be regarded as highly as Hopkins, Juan Manuel Marquez or Barrera.
He's beaten every man he's ever faced and completely cleaned house at 168 lbs something no other fighter has done recently in any weight class.
People who criticise him who else has totally dominated a division better than Calzaghe in the past 20 years?
Only Hopkins comes close but he ultimately failed being beat twice by Jermain Taylor.
When Calzaghe faced his own unbeaten number 1 challengers in LAcy and Kessler he whooped their asses.
He's an all time great for sure, although the yanks will likely never accept that.
Sorry Bilbo,it has nothing to do with country,a disputed decision against Hopkins,a fight against an injured Kessler,and an over rated Lacy does not make you a great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
That would be like judging Ali's career by what he did to Jerry Quarry,Patterson in 72(not the first fight) and Zora Foley
Funny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeySorry Bilbo,it has nothing to do with country,a disputed decision against Hopkins,a fight against an injured Kessler,and an over rated Lacy does not make you a great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
That would be like judging Ali's career by what he did to Jerry Quarry,Patterson in 72(not the first fight) and Zora Foley
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Kessler was injured? ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Amazing innit :rolleyes:
Thanks guys, comments taken on board. I agree with you on his fight style, i'v never been a fan of his pitter-pat style, flurries of punches not always connecting but he's got a lot of guys out of there early so the power must be there somewhere. He's got some big names on his ledger, and some stinkers:rolleyes: I put him in the top 5 British boxers of all time.
Bilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFunny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeySorry Bilbo,it has nothing to do with country,a disputed decision against Hopkins,a fight against an injured Kessler,and an over rated Lacy does not make you a great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
That would be like judging Ali's career by what he did to Jerry Quarry,Patterson in 72(not the first fight) and Zora Foley
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
Im not saying its Joe Calzaghe's fault he was in a weak era of the Super Middleweights, but i still think he should of moved up to Light Heavyweight years ago. I remember after the Kabary Salem fight, Joe Calzaghe said he was tight at the weight and struggled to make the Super Middleweight limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFunny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeySorry Bilbo,it has nothing to do with country,a disputed decision against Hopkins,a fight against an injured Kessler,and an over rated Lacy does not make you a great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
That would be like judging Ali's career by what he did to Jerry Quarry,Patterson in 72(not the first fight) and Zora Foley
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Amen.
I agree with both sides here. Calzaghe was probably the greatest super middleweight of all-time. To use a phrase he often uses, at the end of the day, it can't be denied that it is impressive to stay unbeaten for 11 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFunny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
On the other hand, he has not faced the best competition. His best win is over Hopkins where he looked his worst, of course in all fairness to him, Hopkins is a great and makes everyone look their worst. Yes, he thoroughly dominated Lacy, but who has Lacy beat? Calzaghe fans overrate that win because the american press had Lacy a huge favorite. They should feel vindicated, but that doesn't mean, however, that a win over Lacy does amazing things for a career. In my opinion, Calzaghe's legacy in small part depends on how good Kessler winds up being. If Kessler proves to be a great super middleweight, Calzaghe's dominant performance will look even sweeter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFunny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
Im not saying its Joe Calzaghe's fault he was in a weak era of the Super Middleweights, but i still think he should of moved up to Light Heavyweight years ago. I remember after the Kabary Salem fight, Joe Calzaghe said he was tight at the weight and struggled to make the Super Middleweight limit.
Ok lets do Roy:
Hopkins = Green
Toney = Weight drained
Bums from 94-03
Tarver = Disputed
Ok lets do Hopkins:
Oscar = Small
Tito = Small
Tarver weight drained
Why do people keep bringing up crap about Calzaghe when EXACTLY the same arguments could be said with Hopkins and Jones.
Calzaghe haters are stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
Im not saying its Joe Calzaghe's fault he was in a weak era of the Super Middleweights, but i still think he should of moved up to Light Heavyweight years ago. I remember after the Kabary Salem fight, Joe Calzaghe said he was tight at the weight and struggled to make the Super Middleweight limit.
Ok lets do Roy:
Hopkins = Green
Toney = Weight drained
Bums from 94-03
Tarver = Disputed
Ok lets do Hopkins:
Oscar = Small
Tito = Small
Tarver weight drained
Why do people keep bringing up crap about Calzaghe when EXACTLY the same arguments could be said with Hopkins and Jones.
Calzaghe haters are stupid.
Makes me laugh you could nit pick every single boxers career and put a negative spin on it, Calzaghe is a great fighter a great champion there is no disputing that, the guy never gets a break.
James Toney = was a top 3 P4P fighther he always had weight problems, too much was made out of it. And James Toney in an interview said before the fight he didn't want any excuses regarding his weight. A little bit different to Chris Eubank who was pulled on late notice and only had 1 week to lose 20+ pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
Im not saying its Joe Calzaghe's fault he was in a weak era of the Super Middleweights, but i still think he should of moved up to Light Heavyweight years ago. I remember after the Kabary Salem fight, Joe Calzaghe said he was tight at the weight and struggled to make the Super Middleweight limit.
Ok lets do Roy:
Hopkins = Green
Toney = Weight drained
Bums from 94-03
Tarver = Disputed
Ok lets do Hopkins:
Oscar = Small
Tito = Small
Tarver weight drained
Why do people keep bringing up crap about Calzaghe when EXACTLY the same arguments could be said with Hopkins and Jones.
Calzaghe haters are stupid.
RJJ = was just as green as Bernard Hopkins at the pro level, why do people keep using this ridiculous excuse ? RJJ had less fights than Bernard Hopkins.
Antonio Tarver = win was disuputed ? uhh yea whatever people wern't used to seeing RJJ in a close fight, thats why it was disputed at that time. I didn't think it was close at all the rounds were easy to score, and i had RJJ a clear winner by 3 rounds.
ODLH = Legit excuse.
Tito = Well the difference is Bernard Hopkins was a big underdog, Tito was high in the P4P rankings, and destroyed William Joppy like no one else had before. Bernard Hopkins doesn't get enough credit for this win, do you know how much of a favorite Tito was at the time ?
Antonio Tarver = Again Bernard Hopkins was the one moving up 2 weight classes, and was quite a big underdog. If Bernard Hopkins would of lost, there would of been an even more legit excuse for Bernard Hopkins.
One last thing RJJ had many more quality wins against.
Virgil Hill
Montel Griffin
Thulani Malinga
Eric Harding
Jorge Fenando Castro
etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo comparing a great fighter like Felix Trinidad who had the record, for the most Welterweight title defenses in history is madness. Felix Trinidad defeated great fighters and proved time and time again, he belonged against the best of his era.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFunny how Kessler was injured now and Lacy was overratted :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
What about Trinidad, he had his ass handed to him by Winky and Roy Jones, he must have been overatted too?
And B Hop has had a bunch of disputed fights. Funny how three close losses to Taylor and Calzaghe can be turned around into wins but a close win can be twisted into almost being a loss? :-\
Calzaghe has beaten everyone put in front of him, more than can be said of Roy Jones, B Hopkins, Pavlik, Taylor and any other great American middleweight.
His resume is unquestionable and a win over Roy will make him a first ballot Hall of Famer imo
Jeff Lacy was struggling with the likes of Omar Sheika, Syd Vanderpool, even before the Joe Calzaghe fight for crying out loud. He only got overhyped because he defeated a shot undertrained Robin Reid, who gave Joe Calzaghe all he could handle back in 1999.
Im not saying i agree with TM i think he is discrediting Joe Calzaghe, just for the sake of discrediting him. But i think what he is saying is that majority of Joe Calzaghe's best wins are all questionable. I'll give you examples of what i mean Bilbo.
Charles Brewer = Just got stopped in 3 rounds by Antwun Echols.
Richie Woodhall = Just lost Markus Beyer, was also dropped 3 times by feather fisted Markus Beyer.
Chris Eubank = Weight drained.
Robin Reid = Just lost to 40+ Thulani Malinga.
etc.
I mean the only really good wins Joe Calzaghe has had with no question marks is Mikkel Kessler, Jeff Lacy, but as i pointed out to you before. previous fights before the Joe Calzaghe fight, proved Jeff Lacy wasn't world class.
And i don't see why that if Joe Calzaghe beats RJJ. That the RJJ win should be hailed as some great win, everyone before this fight considered RJJ. A shot fighter and from his last 2 fights he hasn't really impressed me at all, RJJ does have a chance he still has speed and he is still the bigger man, but come on if this fight was 6 years ago would we be even questioning anything else but a clear cut RJJ win ?
Im not saying its Joe Calzaghe's fault he was in a weak era of the Super Middleweights, but i still think he should of moved up to Light Heavyweight years ago. I remember after the Kabary Salem fight, Joe Calzaghe said he was tight at the weight and struggled to make the Super Middleweight limit.
I've asked this question several times and never got a reply.
But who has Bernard Hopkins beat in his entire career who Joe Calzaghe wouldn't have been a favourite to beat as well?
I'm not knocking Bernard at all here,I think his resume is outstanding I'm just saying when you look at all his wins Oscar, Trinidad, Joppy, Wright, Tarver, Pavlik, Calzaghe would be a clear betting favourite to defeat all of them.
Beating Eubank and Kessler are in actuality probably harder fights than Oscar, Tito and Tarver. They may not have the Hall of Fame credentials but I'd fancy Kessler to beat Hopkins a lot more than I would fancy Tito or Oscar to beat Joe.
Joe's record is amazing, only Floyd Mayweather has managed to go undefeated like him for so long in this era.
I just don't understand why people would want to minimise Joe's acomplishments?
Some people just like to moan and criticise no matter waht someone does.