Lyle sets the heavyweight division straight

I just read the WORST article on this heavyweight division that I have ever seen. And I want to clear the air about how we go about fixing the heavyweight division.

MMA/Boxing - Where did the great heavyweights go? - FOX Sports on MSN?

Sure Valuev-Chagaev II isn't a huge fight when it's for the WBA title and it should be. But the reasons that fight is not as big as everyone wishes is because the WBA has turned itself into the junior Heavyweight division guys like Evander Holyfield and John Ruiz can never get enough shots at the WBA title whereas young guys like Cris Arreola, Alexander Dimitrenko, et al can't move up the WBA rankings, and sure I understand about the fees and all these boxers sometimes choose not to pay, but the WBA rankings are just God awful, it's unforgiveable to have Kali Meehan as your #1 ranked challenger, and even to have Alexander Ustinov in the top 15!

This punk over at FoxSports thinks that just by abolishing the alphabet titles and having Wlad and Vitali fight each other it's going to be some kind of panacea for the division and that is dellusional bullshit!

#1 Abolishing the alphabet title system doesn't mean much UNLESS we have an organized Boxing League for everyone to fall back on.

#2 ENOUGH with this brother vs brother bullshit, I am sick to death of it. Everyone thinks it's the ONLY fight out there in the division. Do you guys remember Hasim Rahman-Monte Barrett??? Do you remember that they kind of grew up together or at least knew each other and were friends for a long time?? And was that fight exciting??? HELL NO!!! Why? Because they didn't want to hurt each other. And that's exactly what you could expect from a Wlad-Vitali match up...it would be like an old school boxing match where they agree to go the distance beforehand.

Here are my keys to getting the heavyweights back to being the BIG division it should be.

#1 Develop American fighters, our Olympians are only decent, they don't have any power! That idiot over at foxsports was correct in saying nobody wants Chris Byrd (or Eddie Chambers for that matter) to run the division. If guys like Travis Walker were able to get better trainers/promoters and just be more well rounded fighters or if guys like Cris Arreola showed up IN SHAPE (FFS) the division would be loads better just from that. American fans want someone to root for...Cris Arreola and his bitch tits don't give the average American much hope for him reaching the top of the division. All past American Champs were a) In shape and b) big punchers: Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe.

#2 If you're in the top of the division you HAVE to fight the other fighters in the TOP of the division....no more of this Nicolay Valuev-John Ruiz matchups for no reason whatsoever. Valuev, Chagaev, Ruiz, and all their other WBA buddies need to step in with the rest of the division and stop ducking fights vs the cream of the crop....who knows maybe they would give us some interesting matchups.

#3 The younger heavyweights need to mix it up with the bigger names of the division or with other young heavyweights. Arreola-Witherspoon was a good match up, the fight didn't live up to the hype but it was a step in the right direction. If Alexander Povetkin or Alexander Dimitrenko stepped it up vs a younger fighter it would be nice...I think either of those matched vs Arreola it would be a solid fight and people would be interesting and I find myself wondering why doesn't that happen?

#4 Fans need to chill out a bit, because if there is a heavyweight fight and it's not for a title it doesn't mean the fight is pointless. The average fan seems to understand that for every other weight class but when the average fans see a heavyweight matchup with two guys who may never even see a title much less fight for one, they don't react well to it. Not ALL heavyweights are big fat slobs who throw one punch at a time. There are good solid fights out there at heavyweight and they are awesome to watch. Brian Minto and Vinny Maddalone aren't the most skilled fighters, but they are for the most part in shape and they are exciting fighters, they are big Arturo Gatti's they can kind of box but they would rather brawl and that's good for the sport.

#5 Boxing doesn't lose fighters to other sports or crime, boxing loses fighters because boxing is hard to do as a kid, it's hard to get parents to support it, it's hard to get the foot in the door when everyone is playing soccer, basketball, baseball, and football. Amateur boxing has really let us down, they have fallen down on the job, they haven't been getting kids out to box and they haven't marketed their sport very well. In many circles boxing is for the poor or the dumb, sorry but that is the case in many families. I think boxing would be better off if it helped educate it's amateur participants to make sure they don't put all their eggs in the boxing basket, not everyone is going to be successful as a boxer, they need something to fall back on.

Your thoughts?

David Haye is the saviour. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I just read the WORST article on this heavyweight division that I have ever seen. And I want to clear the air about how we go about fixing the heavyweight division.

MMA/Boxing - Where did the great heavyweights go? - FOX Sports on MSN?

Sure Valuev-Chagaev II isn't a huge fight when it's for the WBA title and it should be. But the reasons that fight is not as big as everyone wishes is because the WBA has turned itself into the junior Heavyweight division guys like Evander Holyfield and John Ruiz can never get enough shots at the WBA title whereas young guys like Cris Arreola, Alexander Dimitrenko, et al can't move up the WBA rankings, and sure I understand about the fees and all these boxers sometimes choose not to pay, but the WBA rankings are just God awful, it's unforgiveable to have Kali Meehan as your #1 ranked challenger, and even to have Alexander Ustinov in the top 15!

This punk over at FoxSports thinks that just by abolishing the alphabet titles and having Wlad and Vitali fight each other it's going to be some kind of panacea for the division and that is dellusional bullshit!

#1 Abolishing the alphabet title system doesn't mean much UNLESS we have an organized Boxing League for everyone to fall back on.

#2 ENOUGH with this brother vs brother bullshit, I am sick to death of it. Everyone thinks it's the ONLY fight out there in the division. Do you guys remember Hasim Rahman-Monte Barrett??? Do you remember that they kind of grew up together or at least knew each other and were friends for a long time?? And was that fight exciting??? HELL NO!!! Why? Because they didn't want to hurt each other. And that's exactly what you could expect from a Wlad-Vitali match up...it would be like an old school boxing match where they agree to go the distance beforehand.

Here are my keys to getting the heavyweights back to being the BIG division it should be.

#1 Develop American fighters, our Olympians are only decent, they don't have any power! That idiot over at foxsports was correct in saying nobody wants Chris Byrd (or Eddie Chambers for that matter) to run the division. If guys like Travis Walker were able to get better trainers/promoters and just be more well rounded fighters or if guys like Cris Arreola showed up IN SHAPE (FFS) the division would be loads better just from that. American fans want someone to root for...Cris Arreola and his bitch tits don't give the average American much hope for him reaching the top of the division. All past American Champs were a) In shape and b) big punchers: Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe.

#2 If you're in the top of the division you HAVE to fight the other fighters in the TOP of the division....no more of this Nicolay Valuev-John Ruiz matchups for no reason whatsoever. Valuev, Chagaev, Ruiz, and all their other WBA buddies need to step in with the rest of the division and stop ducking fights vs the cream of the crop....who knows maybe they would give us some interesting matchups.

#3 The younger heavyweights need to mix it up with the bigger names of the division or with other young heavyweights. Arreola-Witherspoon was a good match up, the fight didn't live up to the hype but it was a step in the right direction. If Alexander Povetkin or Alexander Dimitrenko stepped it up vs a younger fighter it would be nice...I think either of those matched vs Arreola it would be a solid fight and people would be interesting and I find myself wondering why doesn't that happen?

#4 Fans need to chill out a bit, because if there is a heavyweight fight and it's not for a title it doesn't mean the fight is pointless. The average fan seems to understand that for every other weight class but when the average fans see a heavyweight matchup with two guys who may never even see a title much less fight for one, they don't react well to it. Not ALL heavyweights are big fat slobs who throw one punch at a time. There are good solid fights out there at heavyweight and they are awesome to watch. Brian Minto and Vinny Maddalone aren't the most skilled fighters, but they are for the most part in shape and they are exciting fighters, they are big Arturo Gatti's they can kind of box but they would rather brawl and that's good for the sport.

#5 Boxing doesn't lose fighters to other sports or crime, boxing loses fighters because boxing is hard to do as a kid, it's hard to get parents to support it, it's hard to get the foot in the door when everyone is playing soccer, basketball, baseball, and football. Amateur boxing has really let us down, they have fallen down on the job, they haven't been getting kids out to box and they haven't marketed their sport very well. In many circles boxing is for the poor or the dumb, sorry but that is the case in many families. I think boxing would be better off if it helped educate it's amateur participants to make sure they don't put all their eggs in the boxing basket, not everyone is going to be successful as a boxer, they need something to fall back on.

Your thoughts?

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This for me lies the key.

Lets face it however good eastern european heavyweights become the likes of north, south america, asia, britain etc is never going to warm to their more technical approach of boxing than we have done with the last 50-60 years of great EXCITING american champions.

Heavyweight contests up until the likes of lewis`s, tysons, holyfields fade into oblivion were always the be all and end all of this sport because they more often than not contained the biggest fighters throwing the biggest punches and delivering good quality scraps.

Nowadays the young dare i say it without starting up a race issue african-american 6foot plus guys are all defecting to the NFL because thats where the money is right now for these guys.

They are being replaced by lathargic technicians from eastern europe and all of a sudden the division has just lost its razmataz.

The sport of boxing needs the heavyweight division more than you could possibly imagine and its up to america to bring back the glory days to the division as it isnt gonna come from anywhere else!!

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Originally Posted by leftylee

David Haye is the saviour. Nothing more, nothing less.

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....OK we get it you love David Haye, enough already.

I'm talking about the WHOLE division, what good is David Haye if he has nobody to fight? Sure I feel Haye is going to get KO'd but if he was to win would the division be better off? Would it be different? Only if he beat Valuev or Chagaev who have shown no intrest in fighting anyone good. The WBA fighters are in a seperate division unto themselves, it is ridiculous. But David Haye on his own is nothing, he represents no change, no excitement worldwide (excitement perhaps for the UK but not for anyone else), and if he just continues to do what the rest of the division does then he's about as handy as Audley Harrison.

David Haye is at least in shape and he is a KO fighter...but he's not American (which would really help out the division as far as broad appeal), he's not undefeated, and really he hasn't proven he's a true heavyweight yet either.

And I know I'll catch shit about talking about America and how America needs a top heavyweight who can punch, but hey there are 300 million people in America vs maybe like 50 million in England.

I've read something a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I do not find the source anymore but it was a discussion with Bob Arum (which I hate viscerally) but he said something that makes sense to me:

He says that the reason why HW division is faltering in the Us is mostly because now, the structures to professional sports are much more open than what they used to be before with very good supports for the athletes and such (which is true) and that it was draining a LOT of the top prospects who prefer to give a hit at the NFL or the NBA instead with a program of scholarship and special insurances instead of giving a try at boxing which is not as supported and much more risked. I think that it is effectively a source of the problem because then the pro leagues has to turn even more to what's going on in the olympian ranks. Such sportive structures aren't there in Eastern Countries, Hockey is well developped but that is almost it so their "big guys" potential is not drained by many high elite structures.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

I've read something a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I do not find the source anymore but it was a discussion with Bob Arum (which I hate viscerally) but he said something that makes sense to me:

He says that the reason why HW division is faltering in the Us is mostly because now, the structures to professional sports are much more open than what they used to be before with very good supports for the athletes and such (which is true) and that it was draining a LOT of the top prospects who prefer to give a hit at the NFL or the NBA instead with a program of scholarship and special insurances instead of giving a try at boxing which is not as supported and much more risked. I think that it is effectively a source of the problem because then the pro leagues has to turn even more to what's going on in the olympian ranks. Such sportive structures aren't there in Eastern Countries, Hockey is well developped but that is almost it so their "big guys" potential is not drained by many high elite structures.

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Isn't basketball increasingly becoming like Hockey in that regard?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by leftylee

David Haye is the saviour. Nothing more, nothing less.

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....OK we get it you love David Haye, enough already.

I'm talking about the WHOLE division, what good is David Haye if he has nobody to fight? Sure I feel Haye is going to get KO'd but if he was to win would the division be better off? Would it be different? Only if he beat Valuev or Chagaev who have shown no intrest in fighting anyone good. The WBA fighters are in a seperate division unto themselves, it is ridiculous. But David Haye on his own is nothing, he represents no change, no excitement worldwide (excitement perhaps for the UK but not for anyone else), and if he just continues to do what the rest of the division does then he's about as handy as Audley Harrison.

David Haye is at least in shape and he is a KO fighter...but he's not American (which would really help out the division as far as broad appeal), he's not undefeated, and really he hasn't proven he's a true heavyweight yet either.

And I know I'll catch shit about talking about America and how America needs a top heavyweight who can punch, but hey there are 300 million people in America vs maybe like 50 million in England.

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Of course it would be better if Haye beat Bitchsko. Haye wouldn't be booed out of the arena and send people to sleep. He would add charisma, power and speed to the divison and get it more talked about. Nobody wants to see Wladimir Klitchsko throwing that jab with the occasional right every few rounds en route to a boring win. David Haye will come out swinging and will get people on the edge of the seats. He won't mess around in there.

And why would it help if Haye was American ? All American fighters are useless and fat. Look at Arreola. He must be carrying at least 30 pounds of excess fat. Tony Thompson ? The pussy cat who went down like a sack of shiit against Klitchsko. Eddie Chambers ? He calls himself fast ? please.

You'd think a few more fighters would have the intelligence to think 'hey if i show up in shape i could really give this division a good go!'

It's not that tough a division, it's the most prestigous division in the sport but it seems nobody wants to put the work in to fully claim it other than the Clits and Haye. Makes no sense.

Jesus Christ people a decent talk about the heavies turn into how much of a bitch the Klitschko's are and Haye the Saviour will save it all. After Klitschko knock's Haye out we will get an even more clearer picture on who the master of the division is. Only when these two retire will we respect them and realize they were the best of this era. I believe there will be a big up and comer soon in heavies it's just a down period now. Someone will step-up and it sure as shit won't be no Haye.

Boxing has slit its own throat in some respects. MMA has enjoyed its (re)surgence simply because boxing hasn't been what it could have for many of the reasons Lyle has mentioned. The powers that be are the main ones who are corrupt and they would never want a boxing league. That would require them to be transparent in many respects and be accountable for their actions. As it stands the alphabet titles can make anyone a #1 contender, hell, they can strip the champ and give the belt to anyone they feel like. Their rules aren't reinforced by law. You can sue them if they screw you, but even if you win, but they'll only screw you again by erasing you from the rankings if you ever lose the belt. A boxing league would mean a paycheck for everybody who was in it, but it would also spread out the fights. Think about weekly fights on ABC, NBC, Versus and the bigger fights bumping up to HBO. Sound nice? Never happen. It would require HBO and Showtime to swallow some fights they wouldn't want, regardless of them winding up being good fights.

The best idea I think would be to follow UFC's foot steps. A promoter created league on a channel just aching for programming. Sign some guys to exclusively fight for you in this league on this channel. As guys see these fighters get more exposure (partly because they fight more often) and have their PPV fights do actual numbers even more guys will jump on board. It could blow up in the promoter's face as most of these fighters would probably suck considering the good fighters don't need to hem themselves up, but if it worked the good fighters would come because they wouldn't have to pay a sanctioning body to eventually fight for a title. There could be rankings that made actual sense and was fair to everyone involved.

I would love to see an Emmanuel Steward trained Travis Walker. The guys got everything exciting about a fighter. Great power, physique and a crackable chin. If Steward could teach him to be somewhat of a chess player like Lewis he could go far.

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Originally Posted by Killface

Boxing has slit its own throat in some respects. MMA has enjoyed its (re)surgence simply because boxing hasn't been what it could have for many of the reasons Lyle has mentioned. The powers that be are the main ones who are corrupt and they would never want a boxing league. That would require them to be transparent in many respects and be accountable for their actions. As it stands the alphabet titles can make anyone a #1 contender, hell, they can strip the champ and give the belt to anyone they feel like. Their rules aren't reinforced by law. You can sue them if they screw you, but even if you win, but they'll only screw you again by erasing you from the rankings if you ever lose the belt. A boxing league would mean a paycheck for everybody who was in it, but it would also spread out the fights. Think about weekly fights on ABC, NBC, Versus and the bigger fights bumping up to HBO. Sound nice? Never happen. It would require HBO and Showtime to swallow some fights they wouldn't want, regardless of them winding up being good fights.

The best idea I think would be to follow UFC's foot steps. A promoter created league on a channel just aching for programming. Sign some guys to exclusively fight for you in this league on this channel. As guys see these fighters get more exposure (partly because they fight more often) and have their PPV fights do actual numbers even more guys will jump on board. It could blow up in the promoter's face as most of these fighters would probably suck considering the good fighters don't need to hem themselves up, but if it worked the good fighters would come because they wouldn't have to pay a sanctioning body to eventually fight for a title. There could be rankings that made actual sense and was fair to everyone involved.

I would love to see an Emmanuel Steward trained Travis Walker. The guys got everything exciting about a fighter. Great power, physique and a crackable chin. If Steward could teach him to be somewhat of a chess player like Lewis he could go far.

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To be fair with every one success steward has had ie:lewis he has gone on to have another 7-8 failures.

The training of heavyweight fighters is no different to every other division.

As ive already said boxing needs a resurgent of american heavyweights if the division is to make a rise from the ashes.

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by Killface

Boxing has slit its own throat in some respects. MMA has enjoyed its (re)surgence simply because boxing hasn't been what it could have for many of the reasons Lyle has mentioned. The powers that be are the main ones who are corrupt and they would never want a boxing league. That would require them to be transparent in many respects and be accountable for their actions. As it stands the alphabet titles can make anyone a #1 contender, hell, they can strip the champ and give the belt to anyone they feel like. Their rules aren't reinforced by law. You can sue them if they screw you, but even if you win, but they'll only screw you again by erasing you from the rankings if you ever lose the belt. A boxing league would mean a paycheck for everybody who was in it, but it would also spread out the fights. Think about weekly fights on ABC, NBC, Versus and the bigger fights bumping up to HBO. Sound nice? Never happen. It would require HBO and Showtime to swallow some fights they wouldn't want, regardless of them winding up being good fights.

The best idea I think would be to follow UFC's foot steps. A promoter created league on a channel just aching for programming. Sign some guys to exclusively fight for you in this league on this channel. As guys see these fighters get more exposure (partly because they fight more often) and have their PPV fights do actual numbers even more guys will jump on board. It could blow up in the promoter's face as most of these fighters would probably suck considering the good fighters don't need to hem themselves up, but if it worked the good fighters would come because they wouldn't have to pay a sanctioning body to eventually fight for a title. There could be rankings that made actual sense and was fair to everyone involved.

I would love to see an Emmanuel Steward trained Travis Walker. The guys got everything exciting about a fighter. Great power, physique and a crackable chin. If Steward could teach him to be somewhat of a chess player like Lewis he could go far.

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To be fair with every one success steward has had ie:lewis he has gone on to have another 7-8 failures.

The training of heavyweight fighters is no different to every other division.

As ive already said boxing needs a resurgent of american heavyweights if the division is to make a rise from the ashes.

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Very true, but to be fairest, most guys who lace them up quit. And also some guys just don't mesh (Taylor-Steward, Cintron-Steward, Dawson-Mayweather). I mean that if a fighter has 'it' inside him, a trainer of Steward's caliber can bring it out if they have the right cynergy. And Manny isn't the only guy who could do it, he just so happens to be the trainer that came to mind who has a proven track record with heavyweight fighters. Steward knows how to play to a fighter's strengths. I remember he even trained Tye Fields for a time and the first time I saw him I thought the guy was studly-looking, but he was awfully awkward. But Steward had him do the right things for him to win (ie, jab all night until the end of the last round).

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Originally Posted by Killface

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by Killface

Boxing has slit its own throat in some respects. MMA has enjoyed its (re)surgence simply because boxing hasn't been what it could have for many of the reasons Lyle has mentioned. The powers that be are the main ones who are corrupt and they would never want a boxing league. That would require them to be transparent in many respects and be accountable for their actions. As it stands the alphabet titles can make anyone a #1 contender, hell, they can strip the champ and give the belt to anyone they feel like. Their rules aren't reinforced by law. You can sue them if they screw you, but even if you win, but they'll only screw you again by erasing you from the rankings if you ever lose the belt. A boxing league would mean a paycheck for everybody who was in it, but it would also spread out the fights. Think about weekly fights on ABC, NBC, Versus and the bigger fights bumping up to HBO. Sound nice? Never happen. It would require HBO and Showtime to swallow some fights they wouldn't want, regardless of them winding up being good fights.

The best idea I think would be to follow UFC's foot steps. A promoter created league on a channel just aching for programming. Sign some guys to exclusively fight for you in this league on this channel. As guys see these fighters get more exposure (partly because they fight more often) and have their PPV fights do actual numbers even more guys will jump on board. It could blow up in the promoter's face as most of these fighters would probably suck considering the good fighters don't need to hem themselves up, but if it worked the good fighters would come because they wouldn't have to pay a sanctioning body to eventually fight for a title. There could be rankings that made actual sense and was fair to everyone involved.

I would love to see an Emmanuel Steward trained Travis Walker. The guys got everything exciting about a fighter. Great power, physique and a crackable chin. If Steward could teach him to be somewhat of a chess player like Lewis he could go far.

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To be fair with every one success steward has had ie:lewis he has gone on to have another 7-8 failures.

The training of heavyweight fighters is no different to every other division.

As ive already said boxing needs a resurgent of american heavyweights if the division is to make a rise from the ashes.

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Very true, but to be fairest, most guys who lace them up quit. And also some guys just don't mesh (Taylor-Steward, Cintron-Steward, Dawson-Mayweather). I mean that if a fighter has 'it' inside him, a trainer of Steward's caliber can bring it out if they have the right cynergy. And Manny isn't the only guy who could do it, he just so happens to be the trainer that came to mind who has a proven track record with heavyweight fighters. Steward knows how to play to a fighter's strengths. I remember he even trained Tye Fields for a time and the first time I saw him I thought the guy was studly-looking, but he was awfully awkward. But Steward had him do the right things for him to win (ie, jab all night until the end of the last round).

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A perfect trainer/fighter relationship can strike gold ive always believed that.

Hatton came a croper the second he left graham a completely unastablished trainer before hatton as i suspect pavlik will the second he leaves loew.

this looks like an interesting thread, promise will read all when get chance;D

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Originally Posted by leftylee

Of course it would be better if Haye beat Bitchsko. Haye wouldn't be booed out of the arena and send people to sleep. He would add charisma, power and speed to the divison and get it more talked about. Nobody wants to see Wladimir Klitchsko throwing that jab with the occasional right every few rounds en route to a boring win. David Haye will come out swinging and will get people on the edge of the seats. He won't mess around in there.

And why would it help if Haye was American ? All American fighters are useless and fat. Look at Arreola. He must be carrying at least 30 pounds of excess fat. Tony Thompson ? The pussy cat who went down like a sack of shiit against Klitchsko. Eddie Chambers ? He calls himself fast ? please.

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Listen, lefty...EVERYONE on Saddoboxing knows that you love some David Haye and that you think he's the greatest fighter ever but this thread is about the ENTIRE heavyweight division and not just one fighter and the point I am trying to make to you but you are too dense to understand it is that if Haye does the impossible and wins and he doesn't have anyone new or in shape to fight then the division as a whole will continue to suck and sure you would be happy Haye won and would be champ but it would get old after a couple title defenses vs the likes of Eddie Chambers, Oleg Maskaev, and Denis Boytsov.

Also lefty, if you make one more post that is ONLY about David Haye and how he's the greatest, I will neg rep the shit out of you, and ask the Mods to remove you from this thread (hopefully they will heed my call). You hunt me down where ever I post and no matter what it's about (music, movies, politics) you bring up David fucking Haye...I don't give a fuck about David Haye and the fact you keep bringing him up all the God damn time just makes me want to see Haye repeatedly KO'd in the worst manner possible....and the sad thing is, if you weren't such a twat about it maybe I could appreciate David Haye, but thanks to you that is out of the question.

But back to the topic at hand, I think there are lots of exciting matchups to be made in the division, but the lack of "brand name" fighters has really hurt the heavyweights more than any other division. The loss of Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe at the top of the heap have really left the division reeling. The other weight classes constantly have fighters shuffling in and out and since there is a constant flow of new fighters or fighters new to a weight class, you don't get the stagnant feel of the heavyweight division where the only guys that come up are cruiserweights and light heavyweights and RARELY do they ever have an impact on the division and you have guys like John Ruiz, Andrew Golota, and Oleg Maskaev getting multiple title shots when fresher heavyweights (Dimitrenko, Povetkin, Arreola, et al) could more than likely beat the shit out of those old guys. The fact that the division is the proverbial "end of the line" and cruiserweight is soooooo bad (we have had good cruiserweight fighters in the heavyweight division but the cruiserweight division as a whole constantly sucks) hurts the division.