Why do I keep hearing the same old refrain: "The heavyweight division has gone to hel

I watched the Chambers - Dimitrenko fight again last night, and it was great. I think those two could have banged with the best.

I have been watching the fights since the middle '50's, and seen the heavyweights getting bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, and smarter, as athletes have in all other sports since that time. So what I can't figure out is, why so many fight fans keep telling me that heavyweight boxing is the ONLY SPORT on earth where the level of competition has actually declined? Especially with all the money involved.

Is it just that the old guys still love that old time rock and roll, and still can't accept that anyone could hit like Ted Williams? You know, if I had a beer or two I could still be tempted to make up some argument about why Williams was the greatest, starting with the fact he was the last to hit over .400, .406 to be exact. But who am I kidding? If the great hitters of today faced the same pitching he faced, some might hit .500. After all, Satchel Paige couldn't even pitch in the majors then, LOL.

The improvement is obvious in basketball. Just watch an old video of Bob Cousy and the Celtics, the best of their time. You KNOW FOR SURE they wouldn't be able to get out of their own end against today's Celtics.

It's easy to see the progression in the sports of track and field. Times run on the track today were unimaginable 50 years ago.

Turn of the 19th century champ Jim Jeffries is said to have been a great "all-round athlete". After all, he could run the 100 yard dash in 10.5 seconds! My God, that's a slow high school time today.

Improvement in most sports competition is obvious. Maybe it's a little harder to see in boxing. So it's easy for us to sit back and listen to our Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis tapes, or Guns and Roses DVDs and dream that our old favourites fought better competition than Lewis and the Klitchkos.

I love those old greats. Their hearts are immortal. But it puzzles me how today's intelligent fight fan can persist in believing that heavyweight boxers are the ONLY class of athletes on earth who have deteriorated over the past 50 - 100 years, while athletes in all other sports have advanced light years.

No, wait. I've got it figured out. Here it is. They have never been able to tough it out and watch videos of Louis' "bum of the month club". Face it, Ruiz or Valuev would have run through that bunch like shxt through a goose.

Do you honestly think that any HW today is as fast as the likes of Ali? Or that they hit as hard as Foreman? I don't, not at all.

And as for money, there is not as much in boxing anymore due to the interest declining. Ali and Foreman got £5 million each nearly 40 years ago. David Haye only got that last week. And why has the interest in boxing gone?? For me it's because the HW's are crap to watch. Don't get me wrong David Haye is a breath of fresh air to the division, but he is only one man and barring him and the Klitschkos I can't think of many HW's who are in real shape. They all seem to think that heavier is better and it's really ruining the division as lots of them are fat. Hopefully Haye will show the rest that fatter is not better, I mean Arreola for me could be very good if he just lost about 25-30lbs. But he's too obsessed with burgers and other crap foods. Same goes for Solis, its not that long since he was down at 200lbs and winning the olympics, now he's lucky to keep himself down to 260lbs, he's a mess.

The Klitschko's are both good athletes who are always in shape and for them it really is a shame because they are not getting perhaps the credit they are due because the rest are such a mess. As far as Eddie Chambers goes, to me he looks like a guy who should be fighting at 175lbs but due to the state of the HW's he has decided to fight up there and try his luck with naturally bigger men and until he has met someone in shape he has fared very well, but it was clear he was out of shape and out of his depth with Wlad.

The HW's need athletes not fat slobs.

U make a good point. The klitscko brothers probably would have done well in any era. Behind them and probably David haye the depth of talent seems to be lacking. If u look at some of the klitscko brothers title defences their challengerS seem to show as if their deer caught in headlights. It's like they've forgotten there's the most prestigious prizes in sport at stake. If u look in the past the heavy weight division was alwAys exciting people use to get up for the big fights, and the fights use too live up too the hype. David haye has definately breathed some life into the division. But for whatever reason it still isn't what it was. I don't care what anyone says.

"Do you honestly think that any HW today is as fast as the likes of Ali? Or that they hit as hard as Foreman? I don't, not at all." Quote by rjj tszyu.

OK, you've dragged up Ali and Foreman. Nobody's as fast as Ali, no-one hits as hard as Foreman.

Could be true. But putting those two together is like mixing metaphors. You morph together the best of both and you get a superhuman with Ali's speed and Foreman's punch. Then you conclude this superhuman is better than the competition in the division today. Which is true, of course. But you forget about all the "less than superhuman" fighters Ali and Foreman fought, which was the competition of that era. Some weren't fat? Some weren't slow? Some couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag?

We only remember Dempsey, Louis, Foreman and Ali. We forget all the lesser lights they fought that was their competition at the time.

As far as today's fighters conditioning is concerned, most of the Russians look in good shape to me, and Haye and Chambers are, too.

I say put the 20 best of today against the 20 best of any other era and today's bunch would win 2 out of 3.

And if today's competition was given it's due, if we'd be realistic about the competition of yesterday, the Klitschko's and some of the others like Adamek and Chagaev and Dimitrenko and Hayes and Chambers would be given their due.

It is because there are such a run of nobodies that fizzle out faster then they got started...

It is because over the last decade every time the next big thing comes along they turn out to be a bust....It is because there always seems to be just that 1 guy who is head and shoulders above the rest and the division offers nothing competitive for us.....

EG- Sam Peter so strong, who started to show improvement after the second Toney fight...Just to become another second rate fighter who built his rep on fighters who were either past it or never were it..

Then guys who are really talented and if they came a long an era or 2 before would have excelled nicely but get blasted out due to size problems...EG Chris Byrd was a great boxer who was a TRUE heavyweight...If this was the 70's 80's or early 90's.....

We get spoiled by men like a Prime Holyfield who fought nothing but guys bigger stronger men then him as a hw and ate the shots the bigger men were landing so we EXPECT every other man his size to be able to handle the same punishment and come out on top like Evander did more often then not..

We were spoiled by men like Lewis who defeated every man he ever faced and it became understood that his losses were brought on by his own cocky attitude that caused lazy habits rather then the skill of his opp..The came back in rematches top dismantle his former conquerer....There was never any doubt who the King was...While today we have a champion that has cracked under pressure more times then he should have,,,

Our contenders and title holders come out of no where...Guys like Povetkin, Dimitrenko, Boytstov...Good fighters that have limited exposure except when they are involved in a big fight so it appears that they are nobodies to the average fan....

The world champion was someone everyone knew who they were...Guys like Tyson...Holyfield...Holmes...All had general public exposure...Guys like Spinks, Bowe were ex Olympians and had built a following there...Today at best the average person who does not really follow the sport might know about the HW championship is there are Brothers who hold it...EVERYONE knew who Tyson was, Ali, Frazier, Foreman etc

The division holds no household name nor do the contenders......For people to get excited to watch because they heard about them elsewhere....

In the 90's Guys like Golota brought attention to himself in mainstream sports as a ball punching dirty fighter and had a catchy name like "The Foul pole"

Tommy Morrison was in Movies..Ray Mercer the Ex Army Vet always a popular thing to be with fans especially military fans...

the 70's and 80's had contenders like Quarry the good Irish kid who fought anyone, Tex Cobb the guy who had little style but slugged it out until either he or the opp could not continue, Cooney the great white hope...Chuck Wepner who looked like and out of Shape balding man who works as a janitor but took Ali to the limit dropping him...Making the common man feel good about himself....

Today the division does not have the aura it once did...The fighters today are not the balls out go for broke come from behind fellow you could not help but root for....Our Champions are not ones that embrace their role as the most important athlete on earth...

At one time EVERYONE could name the HW champion...Hell if your from the 50's you would know that at one time 3 men were 3 men that EVERONE knew who they were regardless of sport they followed, profession, religon

The President, The Pope and the HW champion of the world......

Hi Paddy 448: I agree the Klits awe their opponents. But I think it is because they are so good, not that their opponents are so bad. They both remind me a bit of Ali with their quick reflexes. But I think they hit harder. Are they as smart? I don't know. Ali was full of surprises. But they have Ph.D's.


DaxxKahn, Hello there.

Your post was almost as long as mine, but if I get your drift, you are saying that people are tired of the HW division because the best fighters aren't flashy, they aren't American, they come from strange places no-one's ever heard of, and they are too big. I'll have to agree with you in most part. (But I've heard that in Europe people are pretty excited about the division, and they know where Kazakhistan and Uzbekhestan are and how to spell them. LOL)

I'm glad you never said the heavyweights today can't fight!

the thing is, aside from the Klitschko's, none of the HW of today would have stood a chance with prime versions of

Louis
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Holyfield
etc.
and the Klitschko's would only stand a small chance basically due to their size advantage

[QUOTE=Dave Hughey;859615]Hi Paddy 448: I agree the Klits awe their opponents. But I think it is because they are so good, not that their opponents are so bad. They both remind me a bit of Ali with their quick reflexes. But I think they hit harder. Are they as smart? I don't know. Ali was full of surprises. But they have Ph.D's.

There's no doubting the klitsckos are good. They use there size and physical attributes to great effect. And I think they would of done well in any era. I would love them to be pushed more in fights. U no see them in a real war. Are they that good that they allow this not too happen. Or is it cause their opponents r so bad. It's a strange one. I expect haye too test their metal when they meet. It will tell me alot more about them in that fight. Cause I see haye as the first real live opponent for a while. As for their reflexes being on par with Ali. I don't see it. Ali was a bit special

Sure there could be fantastic and exciting fights in the HW today, a couple of them do have that potential. When we're talking about the lack of competition, we're talking about a general pool of overall talent. 2 medium or on the decline fighters can give super exciting fights. Gatti-Ward for example, these were 2 good fighters, lovely and gritty, they were good, perhaps somewhere between good and very good, but they were not excellent. Before there was a couple of excellent fighters in the HW, today, a slight handful, and the talent of the handful is far too little to win against both K (except via a shocking lucky upset perhaps). Before, you could wonder a lot about what could happen, Frasier, Foreman, Ali etc, there was some excitement, there was enough talent to make anything possible happens. Not today at the moment and that's part of the problem and what peoples do criticize and as it is often the case, we (including me) tend to spit a bit more than what we should as it is a bit of an angering situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

I watched the Chambers - Dimitrenko fight again last night, and it was great. I think those two could have banged with the best.

I have been watching the fights since the middle '50's, and seen the heavyweights getting bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, and smarter, as athletes have in all other sports since that time. So what I can't figure out is, why so many fight fans keep telling me that heavyweight boxing is the ONLY SPORT on earth where the level of competition has actually declined? Especially with all the money involved.

Is it just that the old guys still love that old time rock and roll, and still can't accept that anyone could hit like Ted Williams? You know, if I had a beer or two I could still be tempted to make up some argument about why Williams was the greatest, starting with the fact he was the last to hit over .400, .406 to be exact. But who am I kidding? If the great hitters of today faced the same pitching he faced, some might hit .500. After all, Satchel Paige couldn't even pitch in the majors then, LOL.

The improvement is obvious in basketball. Just watch an old video of Bob Cousy and the Celtics, the best of their time. You KNOW FOR SURE they wouldn't be able to get out of their own end against today's Celtics.

It's easy to see the progression in the sports of track and field. Times run on the track today were unimaginable 50 years ago.

Turn of the 19th century champ Jim Jeffries is said to have been a great "all-round athlete". After all, he could run the 100 yard dash in 10.5 seconds! My God, that's a slow high school time today.

Improvement in most sports competition is obvious. Maybe it's a little harder to see in boxing. So it's easy for us to sit back and listen to our Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis tapes, or Guns and Roses DVDs and dream that our old favourites fought better competition than Lewis and the Klitchkos.

I love those old greats. Their hearts are immortal. But it puzzles me how today's intelligent fight fan can persist in believing that heavyweight boxers are the ONLY class of athletes on earth who have deteriorated over the past 50 - 100 years, while athletes in all other sports have advanced light years.

No, wait. I've got it figured out. Here it is. They have never been able to tough it out and watch videos of Louis' "bum of the month club". Face it, Ruiz or Valuev would have run through that bunch like shxt through a goose.

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Well as refreshing as your views are I must disagree with at leats your views on the GREATS like Ted Williams (the greatest hitter that ever lived), Bob Cousy, and Joe Louis. What those guys did in their respective eras have not been repeated and for good reason!!! Sure Williams didn't have to face black pitchers for the part of his career but he got to face Satchel Paige and Bob Gibson during his career and not to mention the white pitchers Bob Feller, Herb Score, Whitey Ford, etc. And Ted Williams didn't have the new training methods that today's hitters have. Bob Cousy and Bill Russle in their primes would give anyone hell!

....and Two Ton Tony Galento would have rocked both Ruiz and Valuev!!!

But the Klitschko's do deserve some respect for what they do, they are classy champions that fight anyone out there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

Hi Paddy 448: I agree the Klits awe their opponents. But I think it is because they are so good, not that their opponents are so bad. They both remind me a bit of Ali with their quick reflexes. But I think they hit harder. Are they as smart? I don't know. Ali was full of surprises. But they have Ph.D's.


DaxxKahn, Hello there.

Your post was almost as long as mine, but if I get your drift, you are saying that people are tired of the HW division because the best fighters aren't flashy, they aren't American, they come from strange places no-one's ever heard of, and they are too big. I'll have to agree with you in most part. (But I've heard that in Europe people are pretty excited about the division, and they know where Kazakhistan and Uzbekhestan are and how to spell them. LOL)

I'm glad you never said the heavyweights today can't fight!

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You had a good post mate...Good to see an opinion given besides the usual they suck or other then Klitschko what good is it etc....

I don't agree with everything you said but in Europe etc I know these guys are big deals...If they would televise these around the world (Not just the States) then fans would know what we are seeing.....

I mean a guy from Europe comes along with a 22-0 record and makes his debut in the states or UK for a title shot (lets face it the biggest audience is from the US and UK) and gets blown out then people only see a guy with an undefeated record get blown out leaving them to believe one thing..."This guy fought BS comp and got a shot because of his record and wasted everyones time"...Not too mention it makes the champion seem like he is fighting chumps....

I guess the best way to sum it up is comparing it too when the lighter weight classes have these guys from Central and South America building these huge records against cab drivers and getting title shots just to be over classed

"Athletes not Slobs"... That sums it up...

The perception of boxing heavyweights in the past compared to now is night and day..
They used to be the pinnacle of athleticism.. They were feared wrecking machines.. The Heavyweight division was reserved for the elite with the biggest balls, and you'd have your head ripped off if you didn't belong there.. They trained as hard as Welterweights, and were respected by other boxers, training, and the public..... Rarely did they carry in 30 or 40 extra pounds of burger fat into the ring.. They would have been laughed out of their if they did...
When two top heavyweights met in the past, it was the equivalent of two colossal giants stepping in the ring together.. The best of the best. The savage of the most savage. Monster against Monster... Peak athlete against Peak athlete.. And their fights would go down in history as some of the greatest...

How many fights in the Heavyweight division of the last 10 years are going to go down in history as Classics for the future generations to look back on, and wish with all their heart that "Damn, I wish I was there for that fight"..??

I have no idea how anyone can say that the Heavyweight division is anything like that of even 15 years ago.... The money could still be HUGE for the heavyweight division if it had the characters and athletes there to draw the general public into its drama... But it just doesn't.. It doesn't have those savage, wrecking ball animals who inspire fear, awe, and respect from everyone around them....

It mostly just has boxers who are too big or fat, or both, to fight in lower divisions where unless you come in in the best shape of your freakin life, you may as well go home before the opening bell rings...

Sure there are good fighters in the HW division and you do see some good scraps.. But the HW division was never just about a good scrap.. You can see a good scrap at straw weight if that is all your looking for... The HW division was about awe for the absolute best of the best who left no pushup undone, no step of roadword not completed, and they came in like hungry, primed gladiators ready for war, while the whole world looked on with it's breath held...

You have to feel for the klitschko's who were just born 20 years to late.. They will be known for dominating the Heavyweight division, but won't have the glory of fighting in the Heavyweight division when it was the gladatorial battlefied that it was once known as..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dizaster

"Athletes not Slobs"... That sums it up...

The perception of boxing heavyweights in the past compared to now is night and day..
They used to be the pinnacle of athleticism.. They were feared wrecking machines.. The Heavyweight division was reserved for the elite with the biggest balls, and you'd have your head ripped off if you didn't belong there.. They trained as hard as Welterweights, and were respected by other boxers, training, and the public..... Rarely did they carry in 30 or 40 extra pounds of burger fat into the ring.. They would have been laughed out of their if they did...
When two top heavyweights met in the past, it was the equivalent of two colossal giants stepping in the ring together.. The best of the best. The savage of the most savage. Monster against Monster... Peak athlete against Peak athlete.. And their fights would go down in history as some of the greatest...

How many fights in the Heavyweight division of the last 10 years are going to go down in history as Classics for the future generations to look back on, and wish with all their heart that "Damn, I wish I was there for that fight"..??

I have no idea how anyone can say that the Heavyweight division is anything like that of even 15 years ago.... The money could still be HUGE for the heavyweight division if it had the characters and athletes there to draw the general public into its drama... But it just doesn't.. It doesn't have those savage, wrecking ball animals who inspire fear, awe, and respect from everyone around them....

It mostly just has boxers who are too big or fat, or both, to fight in lower divisions where unless you come in in the best shape of your freakin life, you may as well go home before the opening bell rings...

Sure there are good fighters in the HW division and you do see some good scraps.. But the HW division was never just about a good scrap.. You can see a good scrap at straw weight if that is all your looking for... The HW division was about awe for the absolute best of the best who left no pushup undone, no step of roadword not completed, and they came in like hungry, primed gladiators ready for war, while the whole world looked on with it's breath held...

You have to feel for the klitschko's who were just born 20 years to late.. They will be known for dominating the Heavyweight division, but won't have the glory of fighting in the Heavyweight division when it was the gladatorial battlefied that it was once known as..

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:appl: Best post of the thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dizaster

"Athletes not Slobs"... That sums it up...

The perception of boxing heavyweights in the past compared to now is night and day..
They used to be the pinnacle of athleticism.. They were feared wrecking machines.. The Heavyweight division was reserved for the elite with the biggest balls, and you'd have your head ripped off if you didn't belong there.. They trained as hard as Welterweights, and were respected by other boxers, training, and the public..... Rarely did they carry in 30 or 40 extra pounds of burger fat into the ring.. They would have been laughed out of their if they did...
When two top heavyweights met in the past, it was the equivalent of two colossal giants stepping in the ring together.. The best of the best. The savage of the most savage. Monster against Monster... Peak athlete against Peak athlete.. And their fights would go down in history as some of the greatest...

How many fights in the Heavyweight division of the last 10 years are going to go down in history as Classics for the future generations to look back on, and wish with all their heart that "Damn, I wish I was there for that fight"..??

I have no idea how anyone can say that the Heavyweight division is anything like that of even 15 years ago.... The money could still be HUGE for the heavyweight division if it had the characters and athletes there to draw the general public into its drama... But it just doesn't.. It doesn't have those savage, wrecking ball animals who inspire fear, awe, and respect from everyone around them....

It mostly just has boxers who are too big or fat, or both, to fight in lower divisions where unless you come in in the best shape of your freakin life, you may as well go home before the opening bell rings...

Sure there are good fighters in the HW division and you do see some good scraps.. But the HW division was never just about a good scrap.. You can see a good scrap at straw weight if that is all your looking for... The HW division was about awe for the absolute best of the best who left no pushup undone, no step of roadword not completed, and they came in like hungry, primed gladiators ready for war, while the whole world looked on with it's breath held...

You have to feel for the klitschko's who were just born 20 years to late.. They will be known for dominating the Heavyweight division, but won't have the glory of fighting in the Heavyweight division when it was the gladatorial battlefied that it was once known as..

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:appl: Best post of the thread

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I'll second that. Great post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dizaster

"Athletes not Slobs"... That sums it up...

The perception of boxing heavyweights in the past compared to now is night and day..
They used to be the pinnacle of athleticism.. They were feared wrecking machines.. The Heavyweight division was reserved for the elite with the biggest balls, and you'd have your head ripped off if you didn't belong there.. They trained as hard as Welterweights, and were respected by other boxers, training, and the public..... Rarely did they carry in 30 or 40 extra pounds of burger fat into the ring.. They would have been laughed out of their if they did...
When two top heavyweights met in the past, it was the equivalent of two colossal giants stepping in the ring together.. The best of the best. The savage of the most savage. Monster against Monster... Peak athlete against Peak athlete.. And their fights would go down in history as some of the greatest...

How many fights in the Heavyweight division of the last 10 years are going to go down in history as Classics for the future generations to look back on, and wish with all their heart that "Damn, I wish I was there for that fight"..??

I have no idea how anyone can say that the Heavyweight division is anything like that of even 15 years ago.... The money could still be HUGE for the heavyweight division if it had the characters and athletes there to draw the general public into its drama... But it just doesn't.. It doesn't have those savage, wrecking ball animals who inspire fear, awe, and respect from everyone around them....

It mostly just has boxers who are too big or fat, or both, to fight in lower divisions where unless you come in in the best shape of your freakin life, you may as well go home before the opening bell rings...

Sure there are good fighters in the HW division and you do see some good scraps.. But the HW division was never just about a good scrap.. You can see a good scrap at straw weight if that is all your looking for... The HW division was about awe for the absolute best of the best who left no pushup undone, no step of roadword not completed, and they came in like hungry, primed gladiators ready for war, while the whole world looked on with it's breath held...

You have to feel for the klitschko's who were just born 20 years to late.. They will be known for dominating the Heavyweight division, but won't have the glory of fighting in the Heavyweight division when it was the gladatorial battlefied that it was once known as..

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:appl: Best post of the thread

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I'll second that. Great post