Tall, lanky, output fighters...
I stated a long time ago that Pavlik wasn't half the fighter most people on believed him to be, or Margarito for that matter, and I was worried nobody would be good enough with movement to prove my point, but now three times this has happened, Hopkins-Pavlik, Margarito-Mosley, and now Martinez-Pavlik. I only bring this up because I have always been confused by this sites love of these fighters, they have height they fairly well schooled, but they have nothing special. Now I watched Caballero and I admit, he has some slick moves, but he lacks the speed to be competitive with guys who are great with movement and counter punching. I don't think its just a matter of styles as much as they are only good against guys who stand and trade with them. Minus the heigh even Pacquiao who uses speed, power, and output does much worse against boxers than he does against guys who stand and trade.
Anyways... to the point I am making, is that I am curious why people find these guys who do stop people, but do ordinary things(besides PAcquiao), throw strong but slow punches, so interesting? What do they do that's exciting? I would rather watch guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Cotto, etc. who have it all. Why watch somebody who is mediocre(at the top level) get by on stamina and height as opposed to watching a guy who is agile and quick, which IMO creates excitement of itself.
On a different note why can't any of these tall, lanky guys cut off the ring? Margarito is horrible at it, as is Pavlik. You would think they would get sparring partners that would force them to do a better job of this. I get the impression they probably practice in 16x16 against d level talent.
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
same as most have been saying (me included) that Berto isn't as good as most think he is, and well he's starting to live up to that bill
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
I just watched the Caballero fight myself, and have to agree with you for the most part. He's good to watch really, and an impressive athlete in a sense, but the way he leaves his chin out to dry while he throws you can't really back him against the elite fighters. If he ever fights Gamboa or Lopez, he's getting KNOCKED out, badly. I thought Yordan actually had him in big trouble in the 12th, and that was after soaking up everything he had for the first 11 rounds. He'll never make it that far against someone who can move and counter with a bit more pop, like you say.
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
Ive always liked long rangy fighters.Do think it a misnomer that all are bangers...the whole longer arm snap at the end stuff.You've got different variations.Larios,Williams,Thompson,Funeka,tons of em.I think we see a tall rangy guy on thin legs and almost wait for the "timber" aspect to come in...legs look awkward and almost a newborn calf effect.Some movement looks forced.Ive always thought Margarito a far better 'long' fighter than a Pavlik as far as what they did with it.Kelly always came over the top,down the middle with it and stepped in pattern...led with feet and sort of telegraphed,then planted,then let go with shots and unlike a Margarito did not seem to close range and adapt inside.Tony always swarmed from over and under...basically all around and given weight was lighter on feet.Once inside he could hit to the body well and uppercuts were top notch.....have to say I think Caballero is above both,obviously.Is very fluid and begins punches even while in the middle of others.Touches with some and varies degrees of power at end of combinations.Bit of a ramble there but good topic.
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
Taeth it seems that every thread you ever create is about you telling us you were right about something and then wondering why everyone else was wrong.
It's not hard to see that virtually all fighters have flaws and 99.999% of them will get beat at some point, it doesn't make you a genuis or more knowledgable of the sport than everyone else.
The thing is though it's entirely possible that Pavlik could rematch Martinez, change his gameplan, have a better night and win, and then what would you say?
Not saying this will happen, but it's certainly happened many many times in the sport that we love.
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I stated a long time ago that Pavlik wasn't half the fighter most people on believed him to be, or Margarito for that matter, and I was worried nobody would be good enough with movement to prove my point, but now three times this has happened, Hopkins-Pavlik, Margarito-Mosley, and now Martinez-Pavlik. I only bring this up because I have always been confused by this sites love of these fighters, they have height they fairly well schooled, but they have nothing special. Now I watched Caballero and I admit, he has some slick moves, but he lacks the speed to be competitive with guys who are great with movement and counter punching. I don't think its just a matter of styles as much as they are only good against guys who stand and trade with them. Minus the heigh even Pacquiao who uses speed, power, and output does much worse against boxers than he does against guys who stand and trade.
Anyways... to the point I am making, is that I am curious why people find these guys who do stop people, but do ordinary things(besides PAcquiao), throw strong but slow punches, so interesting? What do they do that's exciting? I would rather watch guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Cotto, etc. who have it all. Why watch somebody who is mediocre(at the top level) get by on stamina and height as opposed to watching a guy who is agile and quick, which IMO creates excitement of itself.
On a different note why can't any of these tall, lanky guys cut off the ring? Margarito is horrible at it, as is Pavlik. You would think they would get sparring partners that would force them to do a better job of this. I get the impression they probably practice in 16x16 against d level talent.
Thank you for telling us , putting us right on facts , being so superior to us all.
Its very humbling to be on the same forum as you , and I think i speak for the rest of SADDO'S when i say we will all try to be better people , all because of you.
:Sarcasm:
Wise after the event springs to mind.
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
I like tall rangy fighters because they usually come to fight. Couple that with a high output and BINGO! You have an exciting fighter.
It's actually hard not to have an exciting fight against this type of fighter.
I mean look how good Bernard Hopkins looked in beating Pavlik ;)
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I stated a long time ago that Pavlik wasn't half the fighter most people on believed him to be, or Margarito for that matter, and I was worried nobody would be good enough with movement to prove my point, but now three times this has happened, Hopkins-Pavlik, Margarito-Mosley, and now Martinez-Pavlik. I only bring this up because I have always been confused by this sites love of these fighters, they have height they fairly well schooled, but they have nothing special. Now I watched Caballero and I admit, he has some slick moves, but he lacks the speed to be competitive with guys who are great with movement and counter punching. I don't think its just a matter of styles as much as they are only good against guys who stand and trade with them. Minus the heigh even Pacquiao who uses speed, power, and output does much worse against boxers than he does against guys who stand and trade.
Anyways... to the point I am making, is that I am curious why people find these guys who do stop people, but do ordinary things(besides PAcquiao), throw strong but slow punches, so interesting? What do they do that's exciting? I would rather watch guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Cotto, etc. who have it all. Why watch somebody who is mediocre(at the top level) get by on stamina and height as opposed to watching a guy who is agile and quick, which IMO creates excitement of itself.
On a different note why can't any of these tall, lanky guys cut off the ring?
Margarito is horrible at it, as is Pavlik. You would think they would get sparring partners that would force them to do a better job of this. I get the impression they probably practice in 16x16 against d level talent.
I think you hit it on the head with the part in Bold...Not getting correct sparring partners....Shit Pavliks people should have been watching tapes of the Williams fight 24/7....It was the blueprint on Martinez....In truth many of Martinez shit is sloppy and easily countered even for guys not so agile on their feet....Those leap in straight lefts leave him wide open for a counter on the way in....
Sure he will land a bit but he uses it too often not to get his timing down....A jabber also would really disrupt his style because he has to worry about getting around it so often.....I was screaming at the TV JAB JAB JAB...
Even if they could not get MW fighters quick and agile enough to emulate Martinez go get a LW or JWW just to chase around the ring....
Margarito IMo was a guy who just wore you out and relied on that..If you didn;t tire he had problems...Not like he was a great boxer anyhow just tough....
Hearns was great at catching guys.......
Re: Tall, lanky, output fighters...
The deal with Pavlik and Margarito is that they just aren't good BOXERS. They are good prize fighters, but as 100% pure boxers they are utter crap....well maybe not that bad but they are well below average.
Pavlik used his size and power (much like a middleweight version of Cris Arreola) to overwhelm his opponent, Margarito is like Glenn Johnson but without the defense. The trouble for these guys is not everyone allows themselves just to be overwhelmed and even if you are in the 99th percentile of height/reach/power/etc in your division there is ALWAYS someone out there who is slicker, faster, and has better defense or simply is a smarter fighter.
A great boxer is usually going to beat a great puncher and that's just the facts.
As a fighter the best advice is to prepare to go the distance and always ALWAYS have a backup plan. Sometimes big punchers have got to box because they are in with another big puncher...sometimes good boxers have to land hard punches to keep off the pressure from the other fighter.
Pavlik and Margarito just don't have a plan B
