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When throwing the left hook should the forearm be parallel to the floor at the moment of impact or should the elbow be lower than the fist and then become parallel on the follow through,I find that if my forearm is parallel at the moment of impact i get a pain in my left shoulder blade and sometimes when trying to throw longer range hooks.
It's taught different ways but I'm taught to have my elbow lower. Being parrallel feels 'awkward' for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by cocobeware
Put your Fist on someones Chin, a partners Chin turn the Hand where your Knuckles are in line with His Jawbone. See where the Elbow finnishes naturaly.
Read Scrap's post (again) then think about WHERE you are hitting....
If you hit with a left hook to the head you are likely going to have to come over his shoulder (or arm) AND want to get a straight (not glancing) blow into his head -- having the elbow up, and forearm perpendicular to the target surface is usually going to be more efficient, but....
Sometimes you can't get it all the way up to a level forearm or the target may not be a vertical surface (like the side of the head) so you do the best you can (in the first instance) aiming to get it up, and you adjust it appropriately (in the second case) and hit directly into (perpendicular) the target shuch as hitting up under the ribs for a body shot hook to the liver.
Shovel hooks (are not uppercuts and) hit almost vertically upward with the elbow down on or near the hip so they represent the extreme of the elbow being low.
See Dempsey's book for a good explanation of (various kinds) of hooks.
--
HerbM
The pain you describe might be a technique issue. You don't want to hit something with your elbow above or at around 90° angle to your trunk. However, you can change the angle of the trunk to the ground without changing the relative angle of the shoulder joint. Resulting in better shoulder health and a more effective hooking technique. You are very probably not putting enough emphasis on dropping the weight on you rear leg (to aforementioned effect) as you punch and overemphasizing the movement of the arm, which is merely there as a conductor.
Great point, well spotted Dadi ;D
Something that should also be considered aside from how it feels or levels of discomfort is whether the shot is a scoring punch and whether the palm is facing down to the floor or back towards you; I'm talking about amateur boxing here.
If you land a (mid range) left hook with the forearm parallel to the ground and the palm facing towards you, this will likely be identified by the referee as a foul punch (or slap), certainly at domestic tournament and international level. If the shot lands with the palm facing downwards then this is a perfect scoring shot.
The same is not true if a (short range) left hook is landed with the palm facing towards you and the arm is at a 45 degree angle (Herb refers to this as the shovel hook), this is a definite scoring shot and is intended to be a much more powerful shot than that landed at mid range.
Always worth interjecting with the rules of a scoring punch I guess.
The elbow is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS at the same level of the fist when you hook. If the elbow is BELOW the fist (then that makes it a hookercut... which is useful depending on the situation).
So why is the elbow always at the same level as the fist?
- more power and solid reinforcement behind the fist making it a stronger hook
- the elbow shields the puncher's chin from a face-level counter-attack like a straight right
- if the opponent is in close enough and the hook misses, the elbow will catch the opponent.
I was taught by numerous trainers to always have the elbow high. It's the de-facto standard for all boxers. It's seriously common knowledge and I wouldn't recommend for you to do otherwise.
I would agree when the range to the target is appropriate i.e. the opponent's head is equal to or more than the length of your upper arm away. If the opponent's head is closer than the length of your upper arm, then the hook would sail past the back of their head or you would need to 'back off' to give yourself room. My sense is that if the angle of the shot is about 45 degrees, this enables maximum power to be delivered during infighting (I guess this is what you describe as a 'hookercut', whereas I'd call it a short range left hook.)Quote:
Originally Posted by expertboxing
Interesting point though.
The following is not an "argument" but rather a way of seeing and defining these punches -- ultimately, what we call a punch is pretty irrelevant as long as it allows us to discuss it clearly and train it effectively:
My understanding is close to Fran's.
A Hook and an Uppercut are most effectively distinguished by the MECHANICS of how they are thrown, although it is common to characterize them by the "direction".
Many people will say it is an uppercut or 'hookercut' or 'upperhook' if it doesn't travel (almost) horizontally.
However, using the mechanics as the distinguishing factor, a hook is distinguished by the fact that it is performed with the elbow (nearly fixed) and being powered by turning hip and pulling pectorals. An uppercut is distinguished by being powered largely by rising deltoids and straightening of the knees and body. That thing Dempsey calls a shovel hook isn't really an uppercut (to Dempsey) because it uses HIPS primarily.
Does any of this matter? Not much unless we create maxims such as "never X while hooking" and then someone else claims that a punch which SHOULD (or CAN) do 'x' is a hook also.
I was taught that a (traditional) hook moves horizontally, has a fist facing the boxer, elbow as high as the hand.
My coach said the fist should NOT face down for two reasons: 1) avoid breaking the hand on partial misses with the fist and 2) the point Fran made about amateur boxing and avoiding being called for an illegal 'slap'.
Then my coach told me that I would not always be able to get my elbow up so 'correctly' but just to make the attempt, and go for speed and smoothness while accepting that my elbow might still be rising to make the arm horizontal when the hit occurs.
Also, when hitting to the body instead of the head, my hand, arm, and elbow, would need to adjust to "fit the surface" contours of my opponents body and perhaps to get under and behind his guard.
Personally, I think I know something like 11 ways to "throw a hook" -- almost all of them are 'correct' according to SOMEONE, most are wrong according to MY boxing coach.
It may be heretical in boxing, but ultimately we really want to 'lose all technique' and just hit in a powerful, fast, relaxed, balanced, effective manner from any position or any angle.
We train the "classics" because there are infinite ways to do it badly, but sooner or later we come to learn there are good ways (and many bad ways) to alter the mechanics to strike in any (never to be repeated) actual position.
Ok, there at the end my Systema training is coming out. "Just stay relaxed and HEET reely hard."
Nice one Herb, Im that busy on something at the moment, Im only glancing at the post when I come on. I think this is a relevent point. Its important to understand what turns the Fist, the Elbow. ;D
I cant understand why no one this days teaches this type of punching...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7gZRlYyAUo&NR=1
Each punch of Joe Louis is short and devastating... In this footage he hits maybe 5 6 times with the elbow up... I like the knockout on 6 minute vs Walcott. I give everithing to learn myself to punch that way. For me this is the perfect way to trow hooks. I like how Joe stays allways to the inside of the attack of his oponents and hits faster because of his compacter form...
When i have started boxing, i have thinking alot about the techique and the delivery of the left hook... I ll start with the technique first in order to get the idea of my post... In order to execute a proper left hook the boxer must has his weight on his left foot and when he looks down he must see his knee direct beneath him in order to remain in balance(just watch some of Kenny Weldons instruction tapes). I was wondering how did a man get in this posiotion? How the left hook masters deliver this blow? In my mind apears the imege of Joe Walcot KOs Ezzard Charles in their 3th fight. I was trying some movements "in the blind" and nothing seemed fast and powerful enough. Then i watch some fights of Jerry Cooney and BAM there it was... Everything statrs with the stance, as usual one of the most important things... I am boxing from very sideways stance. From this stance to throw leading left hook is obviosly impossible, so i tried "miss interpreted" squere stance(like all the lames i have tried to box like Tyson) ofcoure i have just my a... kicked. The problem was that i had my weight on the left leg which directly imobilezed me(movement in all directions impossible plius you are on the edje of your balance... ona light blow and you are off...). What i have observed was this: in order to deliver the leading left hook the boxer must stay some wath square but with the weight on the back foot. Being in this stance enables him to do 3 things:
1)The boxer can step with his punches!!! This means that the boxer can get in clouse distance to trow the left hook(staying square limits the power of the right but we are talking about the left...)
2)By simply shifting the weight from the reight foot to the left the boxer has moved his head off the center line. So he can slip! (thats why when some one is trying to box with "headmovement ala Tyson" with the weight on the front foot he fails)
3)Here comes the combination... When the boxer steps and after that shifts fast his weight on the left foot he has managed to obtain the perfect form and position to trow the left hook...
There are ofcourse much more set ups for the left hook than just what i have described(my personal favorite is the 2 left hooks in the body like James Toney do). But i must start from somewhere.
Which dempsey book are you talking about? wat year?Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbM
Which dempsey book are you talking about? wat year?[/QUOTE]
The one on "how to box" (not the biography nor the conditioning book):
Championship Fighting - Explosive PunchingLove that book.