louis and ali were both credited with helping the advancement of the african american but which out of the two achieved more.
for me it is louis
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louis and ali were both credited with helping the advancement of the african american but which out of the two achieved more.
for me it is louis
Tough question.
In the sense that Black people were respected and not despised and lynched for being respectful then it was Louis. Ali, a lot like Johnson, was in your face and did not hide and shy away from controversy. Both brought pride for African Americana's but in much different ways.
To me it has to be Joe. Because of how Joe acted as a champion, at a time when most white people still out and out hated blacks, he changed some white peoples opinions about blacks. Because of that a brash kid like Ali could come out and say whatever he wanted. Also Louis was beloved by almost all blacks, Ali was 50/50. Lots of conservative whites hated Ali and so did a fair amount of blacks who thought Ali was doing great harm with his ways.
Now some people will say that Joe acted like an "Uncle Tom" during his reign, never pushing the establishment to do something to change race relations but I disagree. Remember no black was allowed to fight for the title for 20+ after Jack Johnson lost the title. Joe was one slip up away from having it all pulled out from under him. I think Ali was greatly under the influence of Herbert Mohammad and the Nation of Islam and many of the “great social advancements” attributed to him where not of his idea.
Also there has been a lot of revisionist history about Ali. Maybe some of it is sympathy towards his illness but Ali was sometime horrible to the fighters he fought. What he did to Frazier was disgusting and was so cruel. I truly believe Ali’s reasons for not going to Vietnam where completely selfish and had nothing to do with being a “conscientious objector” It was all about losing time to make money. Now Ali’s post career, Louis has nothing to compare it to. Ali is probably the most recognizable figure in the entire world and is seen as a peace ambassador. What he has done since has been beautiful and should be commended.
I agree with a lot of your points but Ali did stand by his principles and give up the title when he could have come to an amicable agreement with the government if he tried. The fact that he gave up his best years takes a lot of courage. He became broke and had to fights with Rocky, speeches to students and lend money from Frazier.
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Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.
Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.
JOE LOUIS
Ali was a great boxer no doubt, but the way he acted and what he stood for were not compatable. He wanted peace and brotherhood and for African-Americans to stand up for themselves but he treated his two biggest rivals like dirt for no other reason other than the FACT that he was a psychological bully. If he wasn't a true bully he would have made peace with Joe Frazier loooong before he did and George Foreman just doesn't hold grudges now that he's found Jesus.
Joe Louis had to walk a tight rope while he was at the top and ANY screw up could have had him in trouble. Yet despite the rules he had to follow and losing out on his prime due to World War II he advanced African-Americans.....he got the PGA to allow black golfers, he got the Armed Forces to desegregate for his boxing exhibitions, and he was a true ROLE MODEL infront of the cameras....he never gloated over his opponents, he never talked shit, he was a class act.
Good point. I think its a situation that can be argued either way, they're both plausible motives. The points you made definitely could be behind his reason for doing it, I've just always looked at it the other wayQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Good point. I think its a situation that can be argued either way, they're both plausible motives. The points you made definitely could be behind his reason for doing it, I've just always looked at it the other wayQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.
People use Ali's draft dodging against him but I rarely hear it brought up in the case of Sugar Ray Robinson. Why is that? When people mention Sugar Ray Robinson no one complains that he allegedly faked injury to get out of it or something or rather.
Actually did not know that about Sugar Ray.
Louis progressed the Black cause massively moving barriers that allowed other Black fighters/sportsmen/people to benefit.
Ali did it in a more controversial way for that time whether deliberately or not.
louis helped the advancement of his people even in the armed forces he used his influence to make sure african american servicemen were in some cases put through to officer training courses and to make fort baseball and football teams multi-racial and also demanded that there be no segregated dating when he was involved in exhibition shows during the war.
I did not know that about Sugar Ray... it's strange though, people often bash Ali for various things that they'd overlook in other fighters. Many will criticise him for things he did outside the ring, yet champion other fighters who also did some awful things themselves. Maybe its because he's often portrayed as an heroic figure people feel the need to criticise him more than others for some of the questionable/bad things he did? I really don't knowQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyQuote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Good point. I think its a situation that can be argued either way, they're both plausible motives. The points you made definitely could be behind his reason for doing it, I've just always looked at it the other wayQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1Those are fair points and I agree somewhat but Ali never came out against the war until his draft status changed and there was a real chance he would get drafted. By the time Ali could have stepped back the public was very much against him and his chances to make money in the US were going away quickly. Even if Ali had joined he would have lost 2 years of his prime and he was a very active heavyweight fighting 3 or 4 times a year. That's alot of money to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cressa121Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
I disagree with the bit in bold. I think he felt obliged to refuse as Elijah Muhammad, the NOI's leader, had refused draft to the army previously, and he (Ali) was encouraged to do the same. I doubt it was his idea solely, he was "pushed" into it if you will but I believe he agreed with the principle of the decision. Had he gone he never would have seen any "real" action, he probably would have boxed a few exhibitions for the soldiers. Also, if it was more selfish reasoning as you say, when he was made aware that he'd be stripped of the title, possibly sent to jail and be banned from boxing he'd have folded. Opinion also changed on Ali' and his draft refusal as public opinion on the Vietnam war began to change - more people of both colours that were previously unsympathetic with his stance softened due to a changing perception of the war. So in the long run I don't think it was too harmful a decision, except the obvious damage to his career as it led to such a long lay off.
People use Ali's draft dodging against him but I rarely hear it brought up in the case of Sugar Ray Robinson. Why is that? When people mention Sugar Ray Robinson no one complains that he allegedly faked injury to get out of it or something or rather.
i dont think you can pick which 1 did more to further the cause of blacks, mainly due to the very different time periods they lived in. totally different styles and personalities. louis served in the military and ali did not. the 60s were a time for going against the grain. louis' time was going with the flow/conforming and people hardly ever questioned their government. both did equally well for their cause.
i also disagree that ali dodged vietnam for selfish reasons. what's a selfish reason anyway? when has it become bad to do what is best for yourself? this is nuts.
Very cool thread and i agree with this...
one thing is for sure they where both used to push agendas ... Louis was used by system where as Ali was used by Elijah Muhammad.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
i remember watching some documentary and the wife of Malcolm X stated that Elijah Muhammad told Malcolm X to stay away from the first Liston fight as it would look bad for the nation of islam when Ali loses... All i have seen is footage of Elijah Muhammad milking it for all its worth after the event.
also remember seeing footage of Louis coming out and slating Ali for draft dodging... seems harsh since Ali helped Louis with cash back then.
I don't know if you've read King of the World by David Remnick, but it focuses on Ali in the early 60's when he was fighting Liston and Patterson and converted to Islam. It says that the NOI were reluctant to embrace him as they thought he could do more damage to their reputation than good...until he beat Liston that is. Then almost immediately he was welcomed in by Elijah Muhammad and was given the new name.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaddoVery cool thread and i agree with this...
one thing is for sure they where both used to push agendas ... Louis was used by system where as Ali was used by Elijah Muhammad.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
i remember watching some documentary and the wife of Malcolm X stated that Elijah Muhammad told Malcolm X to stay away from the first Liston fight as it would look bad for the nation of islam when Ali loses... All i have seen is footage of Elijah Muhammad milking it for all its worth after the event.
also remember seeing footage of Louis coming out and slating Ali for draft dodging... seems harsh since Ali helped Louis with cash back then.
I also didn't know before reading the book that the promoter from the first Clay-Liston fight came close to pulling the plug on it a few weeks beforehand as rumours of his conversion surfaced. They didn't want the title to be in the hands of the NOI and they thought ticket sales were suffering because of it. Someone talked him around but they had to keep it quiet until after the fight