Golden Ages 135 And Up

Printable View

05-21-2011, 02:54 AM
marbleheadmaui

Golden Ages 135 And Up

Continuing this thread on divisions from 105-130

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...105-130-a.html

135-Another of boxing's loaded divisions. This is the first time a pre-WWI era gets a mention as from 1901-1906 the division had Joe Gans, Battling Nelson, Frank Eerne, Jack Blackburn, Dave Holly and Elbows McFadden. Impressive but not the winner. How about from 1967-1972? That gets you Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Carlos Teo Cruz, Mando Ramos, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Roberto Duran! That's gotta win, right? Nope. OK, after all the 135's also have 1916-1922 that produced Freddie Welsh, Lew Tendler, Rocky Kansas, Willie Mitchell, Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard and those guys fought one another over and over and over again! Even THAT is in second place. How can that be? Well because from 1934-1938 you had three of the top ten 135's of all time, and three of the top 25 or so p4p fighters in history criss crossing in Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong with a supporting cast of Lou Ambers, Pedro Monanez, Sammy Angott and Wes Ramey. HOLY CRAP!

140-Another newish division with a minor ancient history. Much of the time this division has had one great and a lesser crew around. But in the early 1930's for a brief time tied to the 135 group above, Jack Kid Berg, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Billy Petrolle, Sammy Fuller and Johnny Jadick fought here. Not bad.

147-Another of boxing's golden eras. The Black Murderers Row of the early 1940's deserves recognition here. Charley Burley, Holman Williams and California Jackie Wilson are all campaigning and some toehr names include Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin and two guys names Armstrong and Robinson. Pretty incredible, right? But there aren't a ton of fights among them as the title was frozen for the duration of WWII. The late 1930's deserves a mention as that great lightweight class moved up. That's Barney Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri and now add in Jimmy McLarnin and Cefarino Garcia. Awesome, right? But the winner is more recent. From 1978-1983 the top names are Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. But then look at the next group! Wilfredo Benitez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry, Milt McCrory and Marlon Starling!

154-Another new division without a fabled history. This one is easy. 1984-1989. The welters move up, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and now add in Mik McCallum, Davey Moore, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and finally Terry Norris. Impressive.

160-For such a legendary division I think there are only two candidates. From 1922-1926 you had Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers with lesser lights like Johnny Wilson, Jack Delaney and Dave Shade. Doggone good. But from 1946-1951 you had what was left of the Black Murderers Row in Charlie Burley and Bert Lytell along with Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, Lauren Dauthuille, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and then some guy named Robinson. Unbelievable how deep that era was and how often they fought one another!

168-Boxing's dogshit division. Why? Up until two years ago the best almost never matched up. Sickening. What might have been from 1993-1998! Toney, Jones, Nunn, Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Ottke! Oh well, let's move on to a division where guys got it.

175-The mid-1920's were a great era with Greb fighting there, Tunney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jack Delaney and Tommy Loughran. The final run of the Black Murderers Row in the mid 1940's of Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Oakland Billy Smith and Lloyd Marshall along with Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Gus Lesnevich was awesome! But 1977-1983 takes the cake. Top dogs of Victor Galindez, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Michael Spinks with the second tier being Marvin Johnson, John Conteh, Mike Rossman, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and James Scott is incredible. But how good was that era? The next tier? Richie Kates, Jerry Celestine, Jesse Burnett and Eddie Davis would give the top of the division today absolute fits! Those names fought one another about 40 times.

Cruiser-Yaaaaawn. Whenever Evader fought, NEXT!

Heavyweight-There are really only three eras worth mentioning. From 1903-1908 you had Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Marvin Hart, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford along with lesser lights like Young Peter Jackson and Tommy Burns. Awesome. The black guys fought one another a gazillion times. From 1961-1965 one approached a Golden Age with Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Floyd Patterson and an impressive next tier of Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Ingo and Ernie Terrell. But the very next boxing generation just blows them away. From 1968-1974 we get Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman followed by a wonderful next tier of Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and an older Patterson and Liston. Then there is an impressive third group of Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo and Mac Foster. DAMN!

Who did I leave out and where am I wrong?
05-21-2011, 06:11 AM
Gallegos Boxing Gym

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quite a credible list. I looked at the other list too. Very astute. I'm glad you recognized the Finito-Alvarez fights as the golden era at 105, though it wasn't much of a contest. Alvarez is really an unsung great as far as I'm concerned, with ten wins over ex-champs and the only guy I saw trouble the peerless Finito.

I think you nailed it and there are only so many eras you can include. At 147, I kinda like that SRR-Gavilan transition period. There's a period of good hvy action in the early 90's that I liked. In addition, I think the middleweight scene in the late-80's get a little neglected.

All in all, very interesting.
05-21-2011, 06:30 AM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gallegos Boxing Gym

Quite a credible list. I looked at the other list too. Very astute. I'm glad you recognized the Finito-Alvarez fights as the golden era at 105, though it wasn't much of a contest. Alvarez is really an unsung great as far as I'm concerned, with ten wins over ex-champs and the only guy I saw trouble the peerless Finito.

I think you nailed it and there are only so many eras you can include. At 147, I kinda like that SRR-Gavilan transition period. There's a period of good hvy action in the early 90's that I liked. In addition, I think the middleweight scene in the late-80's get a little neglected.

All in all, very interesting.

Rosendo Alvarez deserves a hard, hard look for the HOF in my view. I just wish he hadn't been so irresponsible about his weight.

The late 1940's welters of Robinson, Gavilan and then who? I guess Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sugar George Costner, Johnny Bratton and Beau Jack? With Robby and the Cuban Hawk leading the parade that's a better group than I'd thought of. Good catch!

And somehow I just missed mentioning the 90's heavies. That's simply a mistake. Eavander, Riddick Foreman, Moorer Lennox, Tucker. Like I said, just a mistake.

Late 80's middles. I guess that's who? Nunn and the Blade and Kalambay and then who? Duran I guess. Michael Olajide? Not too shabby.
05-21-2011, 07:52 AM
Gallegos Boxing Gym

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

[.[/QUOTE]

Rosendo Alvarez deserves a hard, hard look for the HOF in my view. I just wish he hadn't been so irresponsible about his weight.

The late 1940's welters of Robinson, Gavilan and then who? I guess Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sugar George Costner, Johnny Bratton and Beau Jack? With Robby and the Cuban Hawk leading the parade that's a better group than I'd thought of. Good catch!

And somehow I just missed mentioning the 90's heavies. That's simply a mistake. Eavander, Riddick Foreman, Moorer Lennox, Tucker. Like I said, just a mistake.

Late 80's middles. I guess that's who? Nunn and the Blade and Kalambay and then who? Duran I guess. Michael Olajide? Not too shabby.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying those eras I mentioned compete with the periods you brought up. Your list was outstanding.

Throw into that 1949-53 147 period a still-useful Ike Williams, Billy Graham, Joe Miceli, Gil Turner, Chuck Davey, and Carmen Basilio.

Late 80's middles: Throw in McCallum and Julian Jackson. Round it out with Herol Graham, Frank Tate, the beginning of James Toney, a few SRL wins and 1987-90 isn't too bad at all. Not the greatest era at 160 by any stretch, but maybe one of its deepest.
05-21-2011, 07:53 PM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gallegos Boxing Gym

[.

Rosendo Alvarez deserves a hard, hard look for the HOF in my view. I just wish he hadn't been so irresponsible about his weight.

The late 1940's welters of Robinson, Gavilan and then who? I guess Bernard Docusen, Tommy Bell, Sugar George Costner, Johnny Bratton and Beau Jack? With Robby and the Cuban Hawk leading the parade that's a better group than I'd thought of. Good catch!

And somehow I just missed mentioning the 90's heavies. That's simply a mistake. Eavander, Riddick Foreman, Moorer Lennox, Tucker. Like I said, just a mistake.

Late 80's middles. I guess that's who? Nunn and the Blade and Kalambay and then who? Duran I guess. Michael Olajide? Not too shabby.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

I'm not saying those eras I mentioned compete with the periods you brought up. Your list was outstanding.

Throw into that 1949-53 147 period a still-useful Ike Williams, Billy Graham, Joe Miceli, Gil Turner, Chuck Davey, and Carmen Basilio.

Late 80's middles: Throw in McCallum and Julian Jackson. Round it out with Herol Graham, Frank Tate, the beginning of James Toney, a few SRL wins and 1987-90 isn't too bad at all. Not the greatest era at 160 by any stretch, but maybe one of its deepest.

That is a doggone deep division sin't it?
05-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Jimanuel Boogustus

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

1990-1996
1. Lewis, Holyfield,Tyson, Bowe.
2. Moorer, Bruno,Ruddock, Morrison, Mercer.
3. Foreman, Holmes, Briggs & McCall.

That's a whole footie team plus two substitutes.
05-22-2011, 12:17 AM
Manos de Piedra

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Continuing this thread on divisions from 105-130

135-Another of boxing's loaded divisions. This is the first time a pre-WWI era gets a mention as from 1901-1906 the division had Joe Gans, Battling Nelson, Frank Eerne, Jack Blackburn, Dave Holly and Elbows McFadden. Impressive but not the winner. How about from 1967-1972? That gets you Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Carlos Teo Cruz, Mando Ramos, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Roberto Duran! That's gotta win, right? Nope. OK, after all the 135's also have 1916-1922 that produced Freddie Welsh, Lew Tendler, Rocky Kansas, Willie Mitchell, Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard and those guys fought one another over and over and over again! Even THAT is in second place. How can that be? Well because from 1934-1938 you had three of the top ten 135's of all time, and three of the top 25 or so p4p fighters in history criss crossing in Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong with a supporting cast of Lou Ambers, Pedro Monanez, Sammy Angott and Wes Ramey. HOLY CRAP!

140-Another newish division with a minor ancient history. Much of the time this division has had one great and a lesser crew around. But in the early 1930's for a brief time tied to the 135 group above, Jack Kid Berg, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Billy Petrolle, Sammy Fuller and Johnny Jadick fought here. Not bad.

147-Another of boxing's golden eras. The Black Murderers Row of the early 1940's deserves recognition here. Charley Burley, Holman Williams and California Jackie Wilson are all campaigning and some toehr names include Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin and two guys names Armstrong and Robinson. Pretty incredible, right? But there aren't a ton of fights among them as the title was frozen for the duration of WWII. The late 1930's deserves a mention as that great lightweight class moved up. That's Barney Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri and now add in Jimmy McLarnin and Cefarino Garcia. Awesome, right? But the winner is more recent. From 1978-1983 the top names are Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. But then look at the next group! Wilfredo Benitez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry, Milt McCrory and Marlon Starling!

154-Another new division without a fabled history. This one is easy. 1984-1989. The welters move up, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and now add in Mik McCallum, Davey Moore, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and finally Terry Norris. Impressive.

160-For such a legendary division I think there are only two candidates. From 1922-1926 you had Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers with lesser lights like Johnny Wilson, Jack Delaney and Dave Shade. Doggone good. But from 1946-1951 you had what was left of the Black Murderers Row in Charlie Burley and Bert Lytell along with Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, Lauren Dauthuille, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and then some guy named Robinson. Unbelievable how deep that era was and how often they fought one another!

168-Boxing's dogshit division. Why? Up until two years ago the best almost never matched up. Sickening. What might have been from 1993-1998! Toney, Jones, Nunn, Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Ottke! Oh well, let's move on to a division where guys got it.

175-The mid-1920's were a great era with Greb fighting there, Tunney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jack Delaney and Tommy Loughran. The final run of the Black Murderers Row in the mid 1940's of Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Oakland Billy Smith and Lloyd Marshall along with Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Gus Lesnevich was awesome! But 1977-1983 takes the cake. Top dogs of Victor Galindez, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Michael Spinks with the second tier being Marvin Johnson, John Conteh, Mike Rossman, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and James Scott is incredible. But how good was that era? The next tier? Richie Kates, Jerry Celestine, Jesse Burnett and Eddie Davis would give the top of the division today absolute fits! Those names fought one another about 40 times.

Cruiser-Yaaaaawn. Whenever Evader fought, NEXT!

Heavyweight-There are really only three eras worth mentioning. From 1903-1908 you had Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Marvin Hart, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford along with lesser lights like Young Peter Jackson and Tommy Burns. Awesome. The black guys fought one another a gazillion times. From 1961-1965 one approached a Golden Age with Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Floyd Patterson and an impressive next tier of Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Ingo and Ernie Terrell. But the very next boxing generation just blows them away. From 1968-1974 we get Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman followed by a wonderful next tier of Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and an older Patterson and Liston. Then there is an impressive third group of Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo and Mac Foster. DAMN!

Who did I leave out and where am I wrong?

From your post I can see you have good knowledge for the sport so I would like to ask you about your thoughts on Nicolino Locche. I have only seen a few clips of him and he's elusive but I can't find enough footage to make a valid evaluation of him as a boxer.
Thanks in advance.
05-22-2011, 01:35 AM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Continuing this thread on divisions from 105-130

135-Another of boxing's loaded divisions. This is the first time a pre-WWI era gets a mention as from 1901-1906 the division had Joe Gans, Battling Nelson, Frank Eerne, Jack Blackburn, Dave Holly and Elbows McFadden. Impressive but not the winner. How about from 1967-1972? That gets you Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Carlos Teo Cruz, Mando Ramos, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Roberto Duran! That's gotta win, right? Nope. OK, after all the 135's also have 1916-1922 that produced Freddie Welsh, Lew Tendler, Rocky Kansas, Willie Mitchell, Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard and those guys fought one another over and over and over again! Even THAT is in second place. How can that be? Well because from 1934-1938 you had three of the top ten 135's of all time, and three of the top 25 or so p4p fighters in history criss crossing in Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong with a supporting cast of Lou Ambers, Pedro Monanez, Sammy Angott and Wes Ramey. HOLY CRAP!

140-Another newish division with a minor ancient history. Much of the time this division has had one great and a lesser crew around. But in the early 1930's for a brief time tied to the 135 group above, Jack Kid Berg, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Billy Petrolle, Sammy Fuller and Johnny Jadick fought here. Not bad.

147-Another of boxing's golden eras. The Black Murderers Row of the early 1940's deserves recognition here. Charley Burley, Holman Williams and California Jackie Wilson are all campaigning and some toehr names include Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin and two guys names Armstrong and Robinson. Pretty incredible, right? But there aren't a ton of fights among them as the title was frozen for the duration of WWII. The late 1930's deserves a mention as that great lightweight class moved up. That's Barney Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri and now add in Jimmy McLarnin and Cefarino Garcia. Awesome, right? But the winner is more recent. From 1978-1983 the top names are Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. But then look at the next group! Wilfredo Benitez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry, Milt McCrory and Marlon Starling!

154-Another new division without a fabled history. This one is easy. 1984-1989. The welters move up, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and now add in Mik McCallum, Davey Moore, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and finally Terry Norris. Impressive.

160-For such a legendary division I think there are only two candidates. From 1922-1926 you had Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers with lesser lights like Johnny Wilson, Jack Delaney and Dave Shade. Doggone good. But from 1946-1951 you had what was left of the Black Murderers Row in Charlie Burley and Bert Lytell along with Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, Lauren Dauthuille, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and then some guy named Robinson. Unbelievable how deep that era was and how often they fought one another!

168-Boxing's dogshit division. Why? Up until two years ago the best almost never matched up. Sickening. What might have been from 1993-1998! Toney, Jones, Nunn, Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Ottke! Oh well, let's move on to a division where guys got it.

175-The mid-1920's were a great era with Greb fighting there, Tunney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jack Delaney and Tommy Loughran. The final run of the Black Murderers Row in the mid 1940's of Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Oakland Billy Smith and Lloyd Marshall along with Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Gus Lesnevich was awesome! But 1977-1983 takes the cake. Top dogs of Victor Galindez, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Michael Spinks with the second tier being Marvin Johnson, John Conteh, Mike Rossman, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and James Scott is incredible. But how good was that era? The next tier? Richie Kates, Jerry Celestine, Jesse Burnett and Eddie Davis would give the top of the division today absolute fits! Those names fought one another about 40 times.

Cruiser-Yaaaaawn. Whenever Evader fought, NEXT!

Heavyweight-There are really only three eras worth mentioning. From 1903-1908 you had Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Marvin Hart, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford along with lesser lights like Young Peter Jackson and Tommy Burns. Awesome. The black guys fought one another a gazillion times. From 1961-1965 one approached a Golden Age with Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Floyd Patterson and an impressive next tier of Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Ingo and Ernie Terrell. But the very next boxing generation just blows them away. From 1968-1974 we get Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman followed by a wonderful next tier of Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and an older Patterson and Liston. Then there is an impressive third group of Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo and Mac Foster. DAMN!

Who did I leave out and where am I wrong?

From your post I can see you have good knowledge for the sport so I would like to ask you about your thoughts on Nicolino Locche. I have only seen a few clips of him and he's elusive but I can't find enough footage to make a valid evaluation of him as a boxer.
Thanks in advance.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY ASTONISHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His performance against HOFer Kid Pambele in 1971 is one of the startling nights in boxing history. He basically stood in front of Carvantes for 15 rounds and Cervantes couldn't hit him...I mean at all!

Just going through the resume he had wins over the fine Carlos Hernandez, the excellent Paul Fuji, Sandro Lopolollo who won the undisputed 140 crown in his next fight, fringe contender Hugo Gromaldi, #2 ranked Eddie Perkins (a wonderful fighter), #1 ranked Adolph Pruitt, #2 ranked and unbeaten Joao Henrique and #6 ranked German Castelbondo. He also defeated several Argentines with impressive records, but I know little about them.Then of course he had draws with HOFers Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz. Both of those were in Argentina, but I never heard anyone saying those were anything but close fights.

Here's how I think about Locche. First off his style is unique, bizarre and amazing to watch. Offensively he was simply a pot shotter who never tried to sit down on his punches. But he could punch enough to make a tough guy lik Paul Fuji quit. Defensively he rarely strayed from the pocket and while his footwork was brilliant it is his upper body movement that gets you. His reflexes were as good as Sweet Peas. He was charisma personified in the ring though. Hell he used to sneak cigarettes on his stool!

His record I think overstates quite how good he was. He is, in my view kind of like Marcel Cerdan in that. Maybe 40 or so of Locches wins were uncompetitive tune-ups. But anyone who could shut out Kid Pambele, make Paul Fuji quit and hang with Laguna and Ortiz was serious. serious business.

I sort of think of him as a cut below the true immortals of that time (Ortiz, Napoles, Bob Foster, Ali Frazier and Olivares), but on a par with greats of that time like Laguna, Dick Tiger, Lionel Rose and ahead of such fine fighters as Mando Ramos, Efren Torres and Curtis Cokes.

He's not, in my view, one of the top 50 fighters of all time, but he might be a top 100. Who more recently would I say that about? How about a guy like Joe Calzaghe?
05-22-2011, 04:15 PM
Manos de Piedra

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Continuing this thread on divisions from 105-130

135-Another of boxing's loaded divisions. This is the first time a pre-WWI era gets a mention as from 1901-1906 the division had Joe Gans, Battling Nelson, Frank Eerne, Jack Blackburn, Dave Holly and Elbows McFadden. Impressive but not the winner. How about from 1967-1972? That gets you Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Carlos Teo Cruz, Mando Ramos, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Roberto Duran! That's gotta win, right? Nope. OK, after all the 135's also have 1916-1922 that produced Freddie Welsh, Lew Tendler, Rocky Kansas, Willie Mitchell, Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard and those guys fought one another over and over and over again! Even THAT is in second place. How can that be? Well because from 1934-1938 you had three of the top ten 135's of all time, and three of the top 25 or so p4p fighters in history criss crossing in Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong with a supporting cast of Lou Ambers, Pedro Monanez, Sammy Angott and Wes Ramey. HOLY CRAP!

140-Another newish division with a minor ancient history. Much of the time this division has had one great and a lesser crew around. But in the early 1930's for a brief time tied to the 135 group above, Jack Kid Berg, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Billy Petrolle, Sammy Fuller and Johnny Jadick fought here. Not bad.

147-Another of boxing's golden eras. The Black Murderers Row of the early 1940's deserves recognition here. Charley Burley, Holman Williams and California Jackie Wilson are all campaigning and some toehr names include Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin and two guys names Armstrong and Robinson. Pretty incredible, right? But there aren't a ton of fights among them as the title was frozen for the duration of WWII. The late 1930's deserves a mention as that great lightweight class moved up. That's Barney Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri and now add in Jimmy McLarnin and Cefarino Garcia. Awesome, right? But the winner is more recent. From 1978-1983 the top names are Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. But then look at the next group! Wilfredo Benitez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry, Milt McCrory and Marlon Starling!

154-Another new division without a fabled history. This one is easy. 1984-1989. The welters move up, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and now add in Mik McCallum, Davey Moore, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and finally Terry Norris. Impressive.

160-For such a legendary division I think there are only two candidates. From 1922-1926 you had Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers with lesser lights like Johnny Wilson, Jack Delaney and Dave Shade. Doggone good. But from 1946-1951 you had what was left of the Black Murderers Row in Charlie Burley and Bert Lytell along with Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, Lauren Dauthuille, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and then some guy named Robinson. Unbelievable how deep that era was and how often they fought one another!

168-Boxing's dogshit division. Why? Up until two years ago the best almost never matched up. Sickening. What might have been from 1993-1998! Toney, Jones, Nunn, Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Ottke! Oh well, let's move on to a division where guys got it.

175-The mid-1920's were a great era with Greb fighting there, Tunney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jack Delaney and Tommy Loughran. The final run of the Black Murderers Row in the mid 1940's of Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Oakland Billy Smith and Lloyd Marshall along with Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Gus Lesnevich was awesome! But 1977-1983 takes the cake. Top dogs of Victor Galindez, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Michael Spinks with the second tier being Marvin Johnson, John Conteh, Mike Rossman, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and James Scott is incredible. But how good was that era? The next tier? Richie Kates, Jerry Celestine, Jesse Burnett and Eddie Davis would give the top of the division today absolute fits! Those names fought one another about 40 times.

Cruiser-Yaaaaawn. Whenever Evader fought, NEXT!

Heavyweight-There are really only three eras worth mentioning. From 1903-1908 you had Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Marvin Hart, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford along with lesser lights like Young Peter Jackson and Tommy Burns. Awesome. The black guys fought one another a gazillion times. From 1961-1965 one approached a Golden Age with Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Floyd Patterson and an impressive next tier of Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Ingo and Ernie Terrell. But the very next boxing generation just blows them away. From 1968-1974 we get Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman followed by a wonderful next tier of Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and an older Patterson and Liston. Then there is an impressive third group of Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo and Mac Foster. DAMN!

Who did I leave out and where am I wrong?

From your post I can see you have good knowledge for the sport so I would like to ask you about your thoughts on Nicolino Locche. I have only seen a few clips of him and he's elusive but I can't find enough footage to make a valid evaluation of him as a boxer.
Thanks in advance.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY ASTONISHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His performance against HOFer Kid Pambele in 1971 is one of the startling nights in boxing history. He basically stood in front of Carvantes for 15 rounds and Cervantes couldn't hit him...I mean at all!

Just going through the resume he had wins over the fine Carlos Hernandez, the excellent Paul Fuji, Sandro Lopolollo who won the undisputed 140 crown in his next fight, fringe contender Hugo Gromaldi, #2 ranked Eddie Perkins (a wonderful fighter), #1 ranked Adolph Pruitt, #2 ranked and unbeaten Joao Henrique and #6 ranked German Castelbondo. He also defeated several Argentines with impressive records, but I know little about them.Then of course he had draws with HOFers Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz. Both of those were in Argentina, but I never heard anyone saying those were anything but close fights.

Here's how I think about Locche. First off his style is unique, bizarre and amazing to watch. Offensively he was simply a pot shotter who never tried to sit down on his punches. But he could punch enough to make a tough guy lik Paul Fuji quit. Defensively he rarely strayed from the pocket and while his footwork was brilliant it is his upper body movement that gets you. His reflexes were as good as Sweet Peas. He was charisma personified in the ring though. Hell he used to sneak cigarettes on his stool!

His record I think overstates quite how good he was. He is, in my view kind of like Marcel Cerdan in that. Maybe 40 or so of Locches wins were uncompetitive tune-ups. But anyone who could shut out Kid Pambele, make Paul Fuji quit and hang with Laguna and Ortiz was serious. serious business.

I sort of think of him as a cut below the true immortals of that time (Ortiz, Napoles, Bob Foster, Ali Frazier and Olivares), but on a par with greats of that time like Laguna, Dick Tiger, Lionel Rose and ahead of such fine fighters as Mando Ramos, Efren Torres and Curtis Cokes.

He's not, in my view, one of the top 50 fighters of all time, but he might be a top 100. Who more recently would I say that about? How about a guy like Joe Calzaghe?

Thanks for the info.
Where would you rank him amongst the defensive fighters such as Willie Pep and Sweetpea.
05-22-2011, 07:04 PM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra

Quote:

Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Continuing this thread on divisions from 105-130

135-Another of boxing's loaded divisions. This is the first time a pre-WWI era gets a mention as from 1901-1906 the division had Joe Gans, Battling Nelson, Frank Eerne, Jack Blackburn, Dave Holly and Elbows McFadden. Impressive but not the winner. How about from 1967-1972? That gets you Carlos Ortiz, Ismael Laguna, Carlos Teo Cruz, Mando Ramos, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus and Roberto Duran! That's gotta win, right? Nope. OK, after all the 135's also have 1916-1922 that produced Freddie Welsh, Lew Tendler, Rocky Kansas, Willie Mitchell, Johnny Dundee and Benny Leonard and those guys fought one another over and over and over again! Even THAT is in second place. How can that be? Well because from 1934-1938 you had three of the top ten 135's of all time, and three of the top 25 or so p4p fighters in history criss crossing in Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri and Henry Armstrong with a supporting cast of Lou Ambers, Pedro Monanez, Sammy Angott and Wes Ramey. HOLY CRAP!

140-Another newish division with a minor ancient history. Much of the time this division has had one great and a lesser crew around. But in the early 1930's for a brief time tied to the 135 group above, Jack Kid Berg, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Billy Petrolle, Sammy Fuller and Johnny Jadick fought here. Not bad.

147-Another of boxing's golden eras. The Black Murderers Row of the early 1940's deserves recognition here. Charley Burley, Holman Williams and California Jackie Wilson are all campaigning and some toehr names include Fritzie Zivic, Tippy Larkin and two guys names Armstrong and Robinson. Pretty incredible, right? But there aren't a ton of fights among them as the title was frozen for the duration of WWII. The late 1930's deserves a mention as that great lightweight class moved up. That's Barney Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri and now add in Jimmy McLarnin and Cefarino Garcia. Awesome, right? But the winner is more recent. From 1978-1983 the top names are Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. But then look at the next group! Wilfredo Benitez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Donald Curry, Milt McCrory and Marlon Starling!

154-Another new division without a fabled history. This one is easy. 1984-1989. The welters move up, Hearns, Duran, Benitez and now add in Mik McCallum, Davey Moore, Julian Jackson, John Mugabi and finally Terry Norris. Impressive.

160-For such a legendary division I think there are only two candidates. From 1922-1926 you had Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers with lesser lights like Johnny Wilson, Jack Delaney and Dave Shade. Doggone good. But from 1946-1951 you had what was left of the Black Murderers Row in Charlie Burley and Bert Lytell along with Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, Lauren Dauthuille, Bobo Olson, Randy Turpin and then some guy named Robinson. Unbelievable how deep that era was and how often they fought one another!

168-Boxing's dogshit division. Why? Up until two years ago the best almost never matched up. Sickening. What might have been from 1993-1998! Toney, Jones, Nunn, Liles, Eubank, Benn, Collins and Ottke! Oh well, let's move on to a division where guys got it.

175-The mid-1920's were a great era with Greb fighting there, Tunney, Young Stribling, Paul Berlenbach, Mike McTigue, Jack Delaney and Tommy Loughran. The final run of the Black Murderers Row in the mid 1940's of Billy Fox, Jack Chase, Oakland Billy Smith and Lloyd Marshall along with Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Gus Lesnevich was awesome! But 1977-1983 takes the cake. Top dogs of Victor Galindez, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Michael Spinks with the second tier being Marvin Johnson, John Conteh, Mike Rossman, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and James Scott is incredible. But how good was that era? The next tier? Richie Kates, Jerry Celestine, Jesse Burnett and Eddie Davis would give the top of the division today absolute fits! Those names fought one another about 40 times.

Cruiser-Yaaaaawn. Whenever Evader fought, NEXT!

Heavyweight-There are really only three eras worth mentioning. From 1903-1908 you had Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Johnson, Marvin Hart, Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette and Sam Langford along with lesser lights like Young Peter Jackson and Tommy Burns. Awesome. The black guys fought one another a gazillion times. From 1961-1965 one approached a Golden Age with Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Floyd Patterson and an impressive next tier of Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Ingo and Ernie Terrell. But the very next boxing generation just blows them away. From 1968-1974 we get Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and George Foreman followed by a wonderful next tier of Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Ernie Shavers and an older Patterson and Liston. Then there is an impressive third group of Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo and Mac Foster. DAMN!

Who did I leave out and where am I wrong?

From your post I can see you have good knowledge for the sport so I would like to ask you about your thoughts on Nicolino Locche. I have only seen a few clips of him and he's elusive but I can't find enough footage to make a valid evaluation of him as a boxer.
Thanks in advance.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY ASTONISHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His performance against HOFer Kid Pambele in 1971 is one of the startling nights in boxing history. He basically stood in front of Carvantes for 15 rounds and Cervantes couldn't hit him...I mean at all!

Just going through the resume he had wins over the fine Carlos Hernandez, the excellent Paul Fuji, Sandro Lopolollo who won the undisputed 140 crown in his next fight, fringe contender Hugo Gromaldi, #2 ranked Eddie Perkins (a wonderful fighter), #1 ranked Adolph Pruitt, #2 ranked and unbeaten Joao Henrique and #6 ranked German Castelbondo. He also defeated several Argentines with impressive records, but I know little about them.Then of course he had draws with HOFers Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz. Both of those were in Argentina, but I never heard anyone saying those were anything but close fights.

Here's how I think about Locche. First off his style is unique, bizarre and amazing to watch. Offensively he was simply a pot shotter who never tried to sit down on his punches. But he could punch enough to make a tough guy lik Paul Fuji quit. Defensively he rarely strayed from the pocket and while his footwork was brilliant it is his upper body movement that gets you. His reflexes were as good as Sweet Peas. He was charisma personified in the ring though. Hell he used to sneak cigarettes on his stool!

His record I think overstates quite how good he was. He is, in my view kind of like Marcel Cerdan in that. Maybe 40 or so of Locches wins were uncompetitive tune-ups. But anyone who could shut out Kid Pambele, make Paul Fuji quit and hang with Laguna and Ortiz was serious. serious business.

I sort of think of him as a cut below the true immortals of that time (Ortiz, Napoles, Bob Foster, Ali Frazier and Olivares), but on a par with greats of that time like Laguna, Dick Tiger, Lionel Rose and ahead of such fine fighters as Mando Ramos, Efren Torres and Curtis Cokes.

He's not, in my view, one of the top 50 fighters of all time, but he might be a top 100. Who more recently would I say that about? How about a guy like Joe Calzaghe?

Thanks for the info.
Where would you rank him amongst the defensive fighters such as Willie Pep and Sweetpea.

I think Locche is one of the 5-10 greatest defenders in history. Maybe a tiny cut below Pep and Sweet Pea because he never did it against as legendary and offensive force as Saddler or Chavez like those two did. I should say, in general, I think more of Locche than several historians I've read.
05-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Dave Hughey

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

I would also give a nod to the HW era of Joe Louis. Colourful era? I guess so.

Maxie and Buddy Baer deserve a mention, Primo Carnera, Max Schmelling, even 2 Ton Tony Galento. James Braddock, Billy Conn. Jack Sharkey, Tommy Farr, Arturo Godoy. I don't know if it's right to mention Rocky Marciano as being a part of that era, since Joe came back to fight him simply to try to pay off his taxes.

I guess it all depends on what paramaters you are using to determine inclusion. Joe was so good he may have made his opponents look bad, when in other eras they would have been champs. It was a colourful era and the fans loved it.
05-23-2011, 12:30 AM
marbleheadmaui

Re: Golden Ages 135 And Up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Hughey

I would also give a nod to the HW era of Joe Louis. Colourful era? I guess so.

Maxie and Buddy Baer deserve a mention, Primo Carnera, Max Schmelling, even 2 Ton Tony Galento. James Braddock, Billy Conn. Jack Sharkey, Tommy Farr, Arturo Godoy. I don't know if it's right to mention Rocky Marciano as being a part of that era, since Joe came back to fight him simply to try to pay off his taxes.

I guess it all depends on what paramaters you are using to determine inclusion. Joe was so good he may have made his opponents look bad, when in other eras they would have been champs. It was a colourful era and the fans loved it.

That's a good point. That period at heavyweights was LOADED with personalities. And you're dead right on the impact of Joe's dominance.