Heavyweight Champs

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

Exactly.

What a wonderful boxing life it would round off.

20 years fighting, highly decorated amateur, lineal champion in TWO weight-classes and more importantly he amassed more money than he could ever possibly spend.

Every fighters dream.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

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You're good with boxing history so I have to ask this question.
But who was the last white HW champ? (Wlad is Slavic, Marciano was Italian)

Bulldog there really is no such thing as white. Its a socially constructed term that has had different meaning at different times in history, and different meaning by region as well. The correct term would be caucasoid and both italians and slavs fall in that category, as do most other people of european descent. If you're talking about white the way it was used in the US in the past, as in just to refer to people of northern european descent then I would think the last one was ingemar johansen.

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Originally Posted by armin

Bulldog there really is no such thing as white. Its a socially constructed term that has had different meaning at different times in history, and different meaning by region as well. The correct term would be caucasoid and both italians and slavs fall in that category, as do most other people of european descent. If you're talking about white the way it was used in the US in the past, as in just to refer to people of northern european descent then I would think the last one was ingemar johansen.

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Right on the money. Caucasians also includes groups like Arabs, Slavs, Persians, Indians (dots and feathers) Afghanis in addition to Euro-extractions.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

---

You're good with boxing history so I have to ask this question.
But who was the last white HW champ? (Wlad is Slavic, Marciano was Italian)

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:vd: those are ethnicities not races, there is a difference.

Ever hear of the Caucus Mountains? They are in Russia and they are the namesake for the RACE that is Caucasian.

And just what the hell is your definition of "white" do you perhaps mean Anglo-Saxon? I'd suggest you look at a government form and see where you see Slavic or Italian on there.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

---

You're good with boxing history so I have to ask this question.
But who was the last white HW champ? (Wlad is Slavic, Marciano was Italian)

---

:vd: those are ethnicities not races, there is a difference.

Ever hear of the Caucus Mountains? They are in Russia and they are the namesake for the RACE that is Caucasian.

And just what the hell is your definition of "white" do you perhaps mean Anglo-Saxon? I'd suggest you look at a government form and see where you see Slavic or Italian on there.

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Historically and still to this day "white" still means anglo-saxon or the germanic people. Italian, Russian, Irish, Jews, other southern european and eastern european weren't considered white in American society in the past and guess what in many places they still aren't considered white. Even other former British colonies like Australia doesn't consider non Anglo-Saxons as white. Italians and Greeks are called Wogs over there.

Btw, I'm 2nd gen Italian even when I go back to my parent's home country, Italians don't refer to themselves as white because we don't want to be grouped with the English, French, German, etc. Just pride. No offense to anyone. They might say they are European, but that's the farthest it goes.

I just brought this up because my dad said that if Haye (half english/anglo saxon) beats Wlad he would be the closest thing that whites would have in a HW champ since Johanssen because guys like Wlad and Marciano were not anglos.

So let me get this right - Haye (black) is closer to being white than Wlad (white)?

Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

---

You're good with boxing history so I have to ask this question.
But who was the last white HW champ? (Wlad is Slavic, Marciano was Italian)

---

:vd: those are ethnicities not races, there is a difference.

Ever hear of the Caucus Mountains? They are in Russia and they are the namesake for the RACE that is Caucasian.

And just what the hell is your definition of "white" do you perhaps mean Anglo-Saxon? I'd suggest you look at a government form and see where you see Slavic or Italian on there.

---

Historically and still to this day "white" still means anglo-saxon or the germanic people. Italian, Russian, Irish, Jews, other southern european and eastern european weren't considered white in American society in the past and guess what in many places they still aren't considered white. Even other former British colonies like Australia doesn't consider non Anglo-Saxons as white. Italians and Greeks are called Wogs over there.

Btw, I'm 2nd gen Italian even when I go back to my parent's home country, Italians don't refer to themselves as white because we don't want to be grouped with the English, French, German, etc. Just pride. No offense to anyone. They might say they are European, but that's the farthest it goes.

I just brought this up because my dad said that if Haye (half english/anglo saxon) beats Wlad he would be the closest thing that whites would have in a HW champ since Johanssen because guys like Wlad and Marciano were not anglos.

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That's the dumbest shit I've ever read

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the upcoming fight I was trying to figure out how many heavy champs (REAL champs) began as something other than a heavyweight?

The following guys were heavies from the get go:

Sullivan, Corbett, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Ingo, Liston, Clay/Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Leon Spinks, Holmes, Tyson, Douglas, Bowe, Briggs, Lewis, Rahman and Wlad.

Then there were guys who started lower but really only came into their top days at heavy:

Braddock, Walcott and Patterson

Finally there are the guys who really excelled below heavy and became heavy king

Fitzsimmons, Tunney, Charles, Moorer, Holyfield and Michael Spinks.

In other words fewer than 20% of heavyweight champions weren't born that way.

Now another way to look at this is how many prominent fighters from other classes tried and failed to win the heavy crown?

Miske, Brennan, Levinsky, Carpentier, Loughran, Rosenbloom, John Henry Lewis, Conn, Maxim, the Mongoose, Foster, Tommy Gibbons, Mickey Walker, Stribling and I'm sure I am leaving men out.

What does this mean?

I am reminded what Budd Schulberg once said about heavyweights being born and recognizing them when you see them. He didn't think heavyweights could be manufactured.

It also means that if 13 does win this weekend? he will really have pulled off something special.

---

You're good with boxing history so I have to ask this question.
But who was the last white HW champ? (Wlad is Slavic, Marciano was Italian)

---

:vd: those are ethnicities not races, there is a difference.

Ever hear of the Caucus Mountains? They are in Russia and they are the namesake for the RACE that is Caucasian.

And just what the hell is your definition of "white" do you perhaps mean Anglo-Saxon? I'd suggest you look at a government form and see where you see Slavic or Italian on there.

---

Historically and still to this day "white" still means anglo-saxon or the germanic people. Italian, Russian, Irish, Jews, other southern european and eastern european weren't considered white in American society in the past and guess what in many places they still aren't considered white. Even other former British colonies like Australia doesn't consider non Anglo-Saxons as white. Italians and Greeks are called Wogs over there.

Btw, I'm 2nd gen Italian even when I go back to my parent's home country, Italians don't refer to themselves as white because we don't want to be grouped with the English, French, German, etc. Just pride. No offense to anyone. They might say they are European, but that's the farthest it goes.

I just brought this up because my dad said that if Haye (half english/anglo saxon) beats Wlad he would be the closest thing that whites would have in a HW champ since Johanssen because guys like Wlad and Marciano were not anglos.

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Bulldog - You are talking some shite :rolleyes:

:confused: