Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Paul Williams (2008)
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)
Now many people claim that Floyd is a top-25 all-time great fighter. Can someone provide me with a historical comparison of other top-25 all-time great boxers with regard to the boxers they arguably missed? For example, Roberto Duran, Ike Williams, Joe Louis, Benny Leonard? Did they miss as many boxers in their career? Is it not uncommon amongst the best to have that many misses? Or is it uncommon? I understand there may be reasons for it e.g. the eras are different in terms of how many professional fights a fighter has over his career, and that economics are different etc.
Thank you for your help.
Disclaimer: I have no intention of suggesting that Floyd hasn't had an amazing carreer, or that he hasn't had great wins, such as Castillo II, Oscar De La Hoya, and Diego Corrales etc.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Good thread.
Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Gentlemen, and especially fans of Floyd Mayweather Jr.,
I have a couple of questions for you. In prepartion for the big Mayweather fight this weekend, I read a few articles from respected websites on the man from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Check Doug Fisher's mailbag this week on the Ring Magazine's Website for an example. The articles suggest that Floyd Mayweather Jr. has left a number of meaningful fights on the table in his career. Some of the missed fights were from when he was promoted by Bob Arum, and others from his post-Arum era. There are probably very good reasons why he didn't engage in bouts with the guys below during his rise to the top of the p4p list. Of course, they still didn't happen. Will people educate me on why each of these fights didn't get made?
Acelino Freites (1999-2002)
Joel Casemayor (same era)
Steve Johnson (same era)
Vivian Harris (2003-2005)
Kosta Tszyu (2003- 2005)
Antonio Margarito (2006-2007)
Miguel Cotto (2007-2008)
Paul Williams (2008)
Winky Wright (2009)
Manny Pacquiao (2010 - 2012)
Sergio Martinez (2012)
At that time Freitas was only known to hardcore fans. By the time he started fighting regularly in the US Mayweather had moved up to Lightweight. Casamayor-Mayweather was a fight that should of happened. Have no idea why it wasn't. Mayweather-Johnson was being discussed. But Johnson lost to Jose Luis Castillo. Mayweather fought Castillo instead. Mayweather-Harris never happened cuz Harris was overrated and there was no point in fighting him. Harris confirmed that by losing to Carlos Maussa. Mayweather-Tszyu I believe was a HBO/Show Time issue. Mayweather was an HBO regular. Tszyu a Show Time regular. Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight. Williams and Wright I don't think were ever visible fights. The rest are common knowledge
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Mayweather-Cotto didn't happen in 2008 cuz Cotto didn't want the fight.
Then there's this point of view.
Great Fight! Mayweather To Battle Cotto, The Man He Avoided in 2008
Just saying.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
I don't really care others opinion. But you obviously do
The undeniable truth of facts: Mayweather-Cotto
Top Rank Protected Cotto From Me
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Oh really?
I post a link and that's "me caring about others' opinion"..... whereas you post a link and you don't care about others' opinion?
Newsflash, pea-brain: Most articles ARE someone else's opinion.
Oh... wait... I know what threw you off.
One of your articles has the words "truth" and "facts" in the title. Therefore, it must be the (cough) truth.
The other one was authored by Floyd himself. Well then, of course it's true.
Dope.
Once again, I've exposed your ignorance.
Do you read your own shit before you post it?
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
There are people who actually think Floyd ISN'T a top 25 of all time fighter? Jesus Christ.
If you don't think Floyd is top 25 of all time, please identify yourself now. I'm not going to argue with you, I just want to know for future reference so I don't waste my time reading your posts.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
What was Floyd's best win? Or top three wins? Floyd might be a great "in ring talent," but has he fought the level of guys that top twenty-five boxers have faced? Did he ever face anyone on the level of say, Roberto Duran?
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Good thread.
Rant, I would put asterisks on Winky and Sergio. Regardless of the fact that jumping many weight classes is all the rage now.... if you look strictly at natural weights and size.... these fighters IMO have never been an easy fit with Floyd from a size standpoint. It's always been quite a reach to match either of these two fighters with Floyd. You have to consider where each of these fighters came from in terms of weight.
Thank you, sir. My point really isn't that there aren't reasons behind Floyd not facing the above guys, but only that he didn't face them. It hurts his legacy, regardless of how we speculate what the outcomes would be. Was Floyd's career-defining win Diego Corrales? Is this his best win? Or was it the Castillo rematch? If Diego Corrales was his best win, how does that compare to say, Roberto Duran's best win? Sugar Ray Robinson's best win? Ali's best win? Ike Williams' best win? Greb's best win?
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.
The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.
There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.
For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?
Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Here's the deal with Floyd: he's most likely the greatest in-ring talent of all time. When you take into account all the factors: boxing skill, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, ect, there's no name you can give me that had more of an abundance of these things than Floyd Mayweather. That's a fact.
People won't acknowledge this, because as people we really don't appreciate shit until it's gone. People have rose colored glasses when viewing past era's and legendary fighters: according to these people, nobody pre-1990 ducked anyone, nobody fought bums, everyone was a man's man who fought who they thought was their toughest test, regardless of what the public thought. And the REAL old timers fought every couple of week because they were all super-tough manly men who wanted to learn their craft. It had nothing to do with the fact that the pay was SHIT compared to today, and corrupt mobster managers took most of their money. No, they were all tough guys who ate cement and shit bricks.
When Muhammad Ali was in his prime, when he was head and shoulders above everyone and visibly the most gifted heavyweight fighter ever seen in a ring, all people could talk about was how he was a sissy, how past champs like Marciano, Joe Louis, Dempsey, ect would have wiped the floor with him. Now he's considered the #1 of all time.
Floyd will go down as, if not #1, a solid #2 behind SRR. I gaurentee it. We can't see it now because everyone hates him and tries to discredit him, but you can't fuck with his resume and accomplishments. I've personally never seen a better boxer, and I've seen them all.
Compare their legacies. There are many people who argue with how highly ranked Harry Greb or Joe Gans are on most all-time lists because there aren't much film of them. In this discussion, how do we know how good Floyd's "boxing skills, physical gifts, boxing IQ, discipline, ring generalship, etc." are if he hasn't faced guys that we consider to be great? Like with Greb and Gans, we can only speculate. How can we say Floyd was a better lightweight than Ike Williams when his best performance at lightweight was his rematch with Castillo? It's impossible.
The difference with Floyd is that we could have found out. We can blame it on Bob Arum's strategy with developing boxers for his pre-2007 fights. We can blame it on risk/reward for his post-2007 fights. At the end of the day though, Floyd's competition is what it is.
There is no doubt Floyd is an all-time great, nor that he should be on everyone's list of 100 best fighters. However, when you start comparing the truly great fighters, guys in the top five all-time of each division, I'm pretty sure, and this is where I would like input from the Saddo community, but I'm pretty sure that Floyd's best wins don't match their best wins.
For example, Wladimir Klitschko is effective as a heavyweight. He's big; he's athletic; he has a high boxing IQ; he has good ring generalship. However, who has Wladimir really beat? Does he have any wins that match the wins of great heavyweights? That's why when we rank Wladimir Klitschko, no matter how you think he would have fared against the top 5-10 heavyweights, they rank above him because they have better wins. Is Wladimir's best win David Haye?
Let me ask this: if Floyd beat Sergio Martinez in his next fight, how would you rank that win compared to Floyd's previous wins? In the alternative, if Floyd beat Kosta Tszyu in 2004 or whenever they didn't fight, how would that win rank on Floyd's current ledger? If Floyd had fought and beat Margarito and Cotto in 2007, instead of retiring, how would those wins compare?
If Floyd was to beat Martinez next or if he had beaten Cotto or Margarito in 07 I would still rank his win over Corrales as his best ever
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?
However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard. Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course. ;)
By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?
Re: Questions re: Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s Legacy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
imp
How about what was roy jones best win pre tarver 2?
Fortunately, roy was so talented and gifted there were no "rocky fights" or competitive fights that the masses crave for that says you havent been in a hard fight.
The same thing can be said for floyd.
Whos to say floyd wouldnt have easily outboxed roberto duran in his prime.
The better the competition the better he performs.
Absolutely. There is no way to say. That same argument though can be made about every fighter we like. For example, I might admire Ike Williams and believe he was the best lightweight to ever lace up gloves. Who's to say he wouldn't have beat Roberto Duran at lightweight?
However, when it comes to talking about the best of all-time, which is a very small group, how can we even compare Floyd Mayweather with Roberto Duran when Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard.
Does Floyd Mayweather Jr. have a win on his CV that equates to Duran's win over Sugar Ray Leonard? Does Floyd have a win that is comparable to Duran's over Jose Pipino Cuevas, or over Iran Barkley at
middleweight (remember Duran started his career at lightweight, comparable to Floyd)? If we are talking about legacy, the most important questions are: who did he face and when? Otherwise, it's mere speculation, and entirely subjective. Not to say, the debate isn't fun, of course. ;)
By the way, there are those that argue that Sugar Ray Leonard wasn't great, or that a win over Cuevas wasn't great, besides that I disagree, even if we assume that they aren't great, are there any wins on Floyd's resume that are better?
Was there an opponent available that was on Leonard's level for Mayweather to beat?
And beating Jose Luis Castillo is actually better than beating Pipino Cuevas
