Thomas Jefferson and American History

I do not know a lot about the history of the USA. I know that you beat King George third in the revolution and that slavery caused the civil war. @walrus knows a lot about this stuff.

I was reading about Thomas Jefferson who was a fascinating and complex man. He was one of the foremost minds of the ‘enlightenment’ period. His personal library became the library of congress. Yet he not only owned slaves but oversaw forced removal and relocation of native American tribes. He opposed the Alien and Sedition Acts and even rewrote the bible removing all of the spiritualism yet retaining the moral messages. Yet he believed other races were inferior to whites.

In Philadelphia 1776 how could he not declare freedom and independence for some and not all?

How could he not say some men are worth more than others?

Slavery was a disease deeply seeded and the sooner it was cut out of the US national body the better for everyone.

It caused the southern colonies to break away and start the civil war.

What if he never took that stance, what would the world look like now?

In the original draft he did call on for the end of slavery and even blamed slavery which King James brought to the new world as a cause for separation. Franklin and other founding fathers had him remove it as it was already a bone of contention betwixt the northern and southern states

What if it was kept in?

I would highly reccommend reading
Jefferson vs Adams.

It will answer most, if not all your questions stated here on slavery...and then some!


One thing I learned from the book was how Jefferson was touted as loathing the private banks (today Federal Reserve- back then, the bank of the United states) yet..when he got elected he did diddly squat to end it.

It would be Jackson to do that.

Nevertheless the electing of Jefferson hinged on some under the table dealings.
Republicans were lambasted by the conservatives...thats right! The Conservatives didn't have a hold on the Republican party, yet--in fact the Conservatives today who clamor on their dislike of big government and federal government, were in fact called :Federalists!!:o

They Said if Jefferson touted a Republican party he was accused of dividing America.

Ever hear the Conservatives of today claiming Obama & Clinton don't like God? Well same with Jefferson, they accused him of wanting to burn bibles if he was elected.

Because he was quoted as stating: "It neither breaks my leg or bring me harm if my neighbor has 20 gods or no god."

Just a great read, the guys who you would think wouldnt own slaves (Jefferson) did and the guys who you knew would...DIDN'T own slaves.

But an unknown element came into play...Adams & Jefferson were tight buddies, but when they both went to France, they changed ideas and became foes.

The nation hinged on ideas & idealism, by ...well you'll have to read the rest.;D

Side note- there are two baisc philosophies that I saw: One is a reading called the federalist papers, the other is the anti-federalist papers.

Conservatives are so opposite today in their speech- which is in stark contrast to their origins. In fact Jefferson and his clan got juice because they separated themselves from George Washington, the friggin founder!!
Well unless we talk about President Hanson, the original father who is displaced by historians IMO because they say didn't preside over the constitution, rather the Articles of Confederation. I say- BUT he was the leader, title, schmital- he had the power to tell France to pull out and they did...

Last- pre constitution one couldnt tax the people (per article of confederation)..and there was not standing army. Well once the constitution came into play, not only did we get a unified Army (which I think we needed) the power to tax the people came...even though today's conservatives claim it to be unconstitutional. then later on 1913, the house was about to convene for X-mas on Jeckyl island did what Jackson, undid- they brought the very bank that Jefferson loathed back to life. (read the creature from Jeckyl Island)
Jackson who killed the bank and stated it on his death bed, was a follower of Jefferson- who back then was called a Democratic Republican...who felt capitalism was for the few and privileged, oh yeah, this is just a smidgeon one can learn from the book Jefferson vs Adams..well not the Jackson part- I said that just to cite it was the Democrats who championed Jefferson's cause.

Todays both parties use their names as a tool to wedge against the American people..and it is pathetically working

My bad man...you got me going...:cool:
oh & liberals didn't exist back then.

Good call on that excellent book, Slim. I haven't read that in ages and it deserves another reading. I'm not entirely sure about Jefferson, but I do know that central banks are the bane of life in the world today. Out with the central banks and arguably along with that, out with the contemporary slavery and servitude that comes with them. We are all due another 1776.

First off :vd: ......a big old :vd:


Slavery did not "cause" the War Between The States and it was not a "Civil War" as the Southern States attempted only to secede (as they thought was their right) not to take control of the United States.

The War Between The States was not about slavery as Border States: Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri kept their slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 (the War started in 1861 fyi) and all slaves were freed after the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified in 1865. With the secession of Confederate States in 1861, the United States House and Senate were free to pass any legislation without obstruction of the states that had seceded...why wait until 1863 to act? Unless of course slavery was NOT the main issue at hand but rather a cause du jour to rally a base of people (Abolitionists, former slaves, and Free blacks) to join the ranks and fight the Confederacy.


Alas this falls on deaf ears as the rule always applies "the winners write history" and so it is

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

First off :vd: ......a big old :vd:


Slavery did not "cause" the War Between The States and it was not a "Civil War" as the Southern States attempted only to secede (as they thought was their right) not to take control of the United States.

The War Between The States was not about slavery as Border States: Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri kept their slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 (the War started in 1861 fyi) and all slaves were freed after the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified in 1865. With the secession of Confederate States in 1861, the United States House and Senate were free to pass any legislation without obstruction of the states that had seceded...why wait until 1863 to act? Unless of course slavery was NOT the main issue at hand but rather a cause du jour to rally a base of people (Abolitionists, former slaves, and Free blacks) to join the ranks and fight the Confederacy.


Alas this falls on deaf ears as the rule always applies "the winners write history" and so it is

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Top notch post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

First off :vd: ......a big old :vd:


Slavery did not "cause" the War Between The States and it was not a "Civil War" as the Southern States attempted only to secede (as they thought was their right) not to take control of the United States.

The War Between The States was not about slavery as Border States: Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri kept their slaves after the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 (the War started in 1861 fyi) and all slaves were freed after the 13th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified in 1865. With the secession of Confederate States in 1861, the United States House and Senate were free to pass any legislation without obstruction of the states that had seceded...why wait until 1863 to act? Unless of course slavery was NOT the main issue at hand but rather a cause du jour to rally a base of people (Abolitionists, former slaves, and Free blacks) to join the ranks and fight the Confederacy.


Alas this falls on deaf ears as the rule always applies "the winners write history" and so it is

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Why did you even bring that up. We were not talking about the civil war. You can say the war wasn't about slavery and be partly right as it was about states rights over the Federal Governments power but slavery was a part of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walrus

Why did you even bring that up. We were not talking about the civil war. You can say the war wasn't about slavery and be partly right as it was about states rights over the Federal Governments power but slavery was a part of that.

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Economy (Agrarian vs Industrial), political power/taxation/infrastructure, the strength of the Federal Government vs the power of States' rights (which we see unfold now in political battles of Gay Marriage, Marijuana Legalization, Abortion, etc), the Presidential election of 1860, the Morrill Tariff, and whether or not the Union of the United States was one that was voluntary or forced all played large roles.

Slavery? Look at the timeline of action taken by government I'm sorry it doesn't add up. Many Southerners viewed slavery as a blight on our history and rightfully so, and many Northerners did not give 2 shits for black lives as all freeing slaves would do is drive down their already meager wages. See the New York City Draft Riots of 1863. General Robert E. Lee freed slaves he inherited he did not own slaves, neither did General Josef E. Johnston. General Stonewall Jackson had a tortured mind on slavery as he was devotedly religious he believed if it was in the Bible then it must be alright, however, he broke the law of his home state of Virginia and taught many slaves to read and donated liberally to their Church which he helped create. The Confederate Constitution banned the overseas slave trade. In 1864 Confederate States began abolishing slavery (the war ended in 1865). Slavery wasn't fully abolished until 1868 (a full 3 years after the war). Also blacks fighting for the Confederacy (of which there were many) were paid equally as their white counterparts which differed greatly from the Union's stance which saw blacks only earn a portion of what their white counterparts were paid.

Slavery was an ill of civilization and if it took a war to stop it (or if that's what people want to believe) then so be it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYzAqHD1gHc

H. K. Edgerton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a VERY complex situation and very few have the stones HK Edgerton has to tell the TRUTH and not some politically correct bullshit.

Lyle,

You are getting pretty pedantic about this. The South seceded because the election of Lincoln without a single electoral vote from the South represented a permanent political marginalization of the region. The Republicans/Federalists concern of political "Slave Power" had finally been broken by cobbling the abolitionists with the Northerners who had been convinced (and to an extent, rightfully so) that the South was wielding an over exaggerated political power that was hurting the North not only in DC but also economically. Lincoln was first and foremost a Unionists which lead to the postponing of freeing the slaves. He is quoted as saying "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union." At the crux of the secession though was the South's belief that abolition had now become and inevitable conclusion.

Yes Lincoln did say that. In the Lincoln v Douglas debates he actually backed slavery. If you read his speeches you can see his evolution to a staunch abolitionist. He would not allow slavery to stand.

Lincoln's job was to preserve the Union, he achieved success in a most lucky manner. The President that followed him was even worse and allowed for deep rooted bitterness to set in as he sought "to make the South pay"....for what is the biggest question.


If the war Between the States was about slavery then why were border states allowed to keep their slaves following the Emancipation?