In no particular order, please......
Ali
louis
lewis
holmes
foreman
marciano
jack johnson
gene tunney
mike tyson
evander holyfield
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In no particular order, please......
Ali
louis
lewis
holmes
foreman
marciano
jack johnson
gene tunney
mike tyson
evander holyfield
How are you judging their greatness? Length of reign, how fast they won the title, quality of opposition (which is kind of a vague one as styles make fights), number of wins, number of defenses????
My list has always been 1. Joe Louis (longest reign & most title defenses) 2. Rocky Marciano (perfect record) 3. Muhammad Ali (some of the biggest wins in division history)...after that it's a mixup of Holmes, Foreman, Lewis, Tyson, Wladimir, Dempsey, Johnson, Holyfield, Patterson, etc
Surely Shavers should be top?
Shavers is a shocking omission. (anyone that starts a thread is getting banned. Trust me.)
what?? who ever said that? Hardest Puncher of ALL TIIIIIIIIME and Top 10 All Time Great......Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis
2 totally different things there mate.
Again, Hardest Puncher of All Tiiiiime and Top 10 ATG are two totally different categories. Shavers is barely in the Top 25 ATGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Will you stop being so serious now! You have started most of the shavers posts!Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbustwhat?? who ever said that? Hardest Puncher of ALL TIIIIIIIIME and Top 10 All Time Great......Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis
2 totally different things there mate.
1) Ali: 3 time lineal champ and dominated the best Heavyweight division ever (arguably, the 90's was equally impressive). Additionally, he transcended the sport like no other boxer has done (before or after) and took the sport "to the next level".
2) Joe Louis: Set the stage for Ali and other black athletes. Completely cleaned out the division, was a devastating finisher and continues to hold the record for title defenses (25). I put him behind Ali because he didn't beat as good of competition or transcend to the "global stage" like Ali did.
3) Evander Holyfield: Fought the toughest competition available, consistently giving away a significant size advantage to his opponent. 3 time lineal champ and multiple time title holder at heavy, beating George Foreman, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer and destroying the Tyson myth. Was awarded a disputed draw vs. Lewis but was ripped off in the rematch vs. Lewis. I place Evander so high because of his historical accomplishments and the fact that only the much larger Riddick Bowe was able to stop him during his prime (the guy barely lost to Moorer while suffering a heart attack!!!).
4) George Foreman: One of the most intimidating fighters ever. Destroyed ATG Frazier and won the lineal title twice, the second time being a record for oldest fighter (vs. Moorer) and 20 years after his initial winning of the title.
5) Joe Frazier: Unified the heavyweight title and dominated the division until he ran into the much larger Foreman. Beat Ali in the Fight of the Century and then lost one of the greatest heavyweight fights ever in the "Thrilla in Manila". I can see a solid case for Frazier being ranked higher than 5th but this is where he lands on my list.
6) Larry Holmes: Dominant champ who had the misfortune of following Ali. Beat decent competition and was ripped off vs. Spinks twice when well past his prime and after defending his titles 20 times. Holmes takes a hit on my list due to never unifying the division completely. Head to head, prime vs. prime I think he is able to beat anyone else on this list and was the "best" fighter head to head, but suffers from a lack of historical accomplishments.
7) Lennox Lewis: Dominant champ who scored NUMEROUS impressive wins over Holyfield, Razor Ruddock, Vitali Klitschko, David Tua and Michael Grant. Beat every fighter he ever shared the ring with (won rematches). I place him here because he suffered two horrible stoppages in his prime and was (in my opinion) given gift decisions vs. Evander (rematch) and Ray Mercer, although both were close fights.
8) Wladimir Klitschko: Like him or hate him/his style, the guy has become the dominant heavyweight champ after a shaky start to his career. Wlad is hurt in my rankings due to a lack of quality competition at heavyweight and his poor showings vs. Sanders, Brewster and Sam Peter early in his career (Davarryl Williamson fight was equally horrible and boring. Like Lennox and Frazier, I can see a case for Wlad being ranked higher.
9) Sonny Liston: Time as champ was under impressive, only destroying Patterson prior to being stopped by Ali. I rank Sonny so high due to his run prior to winning the title, where he destroyed everyone who was considered a threat and forcing Patterson to fight him. I can see Sonny not being ranked on most lists but from the footage I've seen and watching his fight vs. Cleveland Williams, the guy was a BEAST in his prime.
10) Mike Tyson: One of the most intimidating champs ever. Won the title at the record age of 20 and went on to completely unify and clean out the division. Was dominated and stopped in his prime by Buster Douglas. Came back to partially unify for a second prime before being dominated and stopped by Evander. Career spiraled down after the Holy fight. I rank Tyson low because of his performance vs. guys who fought back and lack of big name wins on his resume'.
I've left off Jack Johnson, Jim Jeffries, Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey due to the fact that is was a different sport back then, with less regulation. As an example, Dempsey drew the color line and his big wins were over Luis Firpo, Carpentier and Jess Willard yet continues to be ranked ahead of contemporary fighters like Holyfield and Lewis on many ATG lists. Not saying these men weren't great or fought all bums, just that I don't include them on my lists as there are too many unknown variables.
Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
Tyson
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
George foreman
Joe Frazier
Wlad
Rocky
All pre Louis.
1. Ali (60-67) primarily
2.Joe Louis dominant, longevity,power technically sound
3.Lennox Lewis A rated skill across the board except chin C+
4Jack Johnson like Unitas in football Dr.J in b-ball these guys are the. Creators who were followed by the perfectors...hard to leave out the guys who started what we still use today, jab, hook ,uppercut and when Jack got the title he imo was the first to effectively clinch and tie his foe from counters. Same today it has been perfected.
5Wlad too big too strong too smart to get caught in dog fights bar the guys ahead on my list.
6.Marciano
7Holmes.....edit....Master saw my error Holmes=5,then wlad etc
8. Liston this was forman's mentor and without clay in his way he would've ruled. My uncle and dad said he was feared like Forman and Tyson was..
9 Tunney if he was smart for his day he'd be smart if he were fighting in our day. With any sport I dont stop calling Joe Montana one of the greats just because a Favre comes along and throws further or a Rothelsburger who is bigger...in fact it makes it all the more special. MONTANA like Tunney were in proportion to the athletes in their day...and ruled it
10 .Holyfield he beat the best but never with longevity.
Couldnt put Tyson in because he proved to wilt against his best foes Holyfield and paid step aside money to not fight Lennox. When he did he got thrashed and refused to avenge or try to avenge defeat from Douglass. TYSON is explosive exciting, but didnt win the fights against foes his own age...imo no different had he fought Liston a bully himself.
Slim what are you writing! Having Holmes so low and no Tyson!
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis
4. Wladimir
5. Holmes
6. Frazier
7. Foreman
8. Holyfield
9. Johnson
10. Vitali
blame it on my,cell phone lol. Holmes should be 5 everyone down one klit=6 etc...sorry bout tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I'm with Lyle on this - it really does depend on what you call 'great'.
Does 'great' simply mean the best, most accomplished fighter? Lots of people on here rely on statistics and numbers for that. If we take another sporting analogy, one could list the top ten 100m runners of all time by simply listing the last ten world record holders, or just the current top ten (saying that humans are bigger, stronger, better trained and with more advanced nutrition nowadays)
I'm not sure that tells the whole story, though. What if Usain Bolt had been born in the 1920's .... Would he have been faster that Jesse Owens? He would not have been the 6"5' monster he is today. Would Jesse Owens have run under 9 seconds if he had been born in 1990 and was bigger, better trained, running on good tracks etc?
There is also the element of competition... Asafa Powell has run many of the fastest times in history, but he crumbles somewhat under the pressure of a big final, while Bolt revels in the limelight and it brings the best out of him.
Even removing the so argument that all athletes today are better than they used to be (which I don't necessarily subscribe to) I think that there are other elements of 'greatness', how dominant over everyone else were they (Rocky Marciano), what was their longevity at the highest level (Joe Louis), did they transcend the sport and become mainstream (Ali, Dempsey,Tyson), did they make such an impact that legends have grown up around them (Liston)?
Of course, there's no set answer to this question, just as we will never know if Roger Federer was a greater player than Rod Laver, or whether Ayrton Senna was a better driver than Juan Manuel Fangio
Trying (!) to take the above into account, and recognising that I will have my own biases, here's my two penn'orth;
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. John L Sullivan
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Mike Tyson
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Larry Holmes
8. Lennox Lewis
9. George Foreman
10. Sonny Liston
And so many great fighters didn't make this list.
I rate the Klits and some other modern heavyweights too, but it's too soon to judge them yet. We moan about them, denigrate the quality of their opponents and say they're boring. Let's see what comes after them, as it won't be long before Wlad represents the Good Old Days
I'm sure people disagree, and I might well come up with a different list tomorrow if I was asked!.