Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I don't know whether this topic has been discussed here before... but it's a question I've always had. It seems the lower the weight class, the sooner age becomes a factor. Looking at Chocolatito's upcoming fight made me think of that again. He's 33 now, which is total peak for middleweights and above. But at lightweight and below... is it still peak?
I would guess speed and reflexes are the key. The lighter guys need a ton of speed and cat-like reflexes to survive at the elite level. When you have one that hits as hard as Chocolatito... it adds another dimension. Meanwhile at heavyweight... you can have lumbering guys whose punches can be timed with an egg timer. Power, chin, and ring savvy count a lot more than speed at that level, I would guess.
What would people consider to be the peak age periods for the different weight classes?
(This question doesn't take into account off-the-curve fighters who have been in frequent wars and are overly worn for their age. Just the typical fighter).
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I think the lighter weight fighters in general do have shorter and possibly younger primes than fighters at the higher weights. This is because of making weight which is draining and shorten their careers. I also think that there are less fighters at the weight so the quality at the top is higher. There is less money at these weights so they have to take the best earlier which means harder fights.
There will be the exceptions to these rules but overall I think it is harder at the lighter weights.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
I think the lighter weight fighters in general do have shorter and possibly younger primes than fighters at the higher weights. This is because of making weight which is draining and shorten their careers. I also think that there are less fighters at the weight so the quality at the top is higher. There is less money at these weights so they have to take the best earlier which means harder fights.
There will be the exceptions to these rules but overall I think it is harder at the lighter weights.
Good points all. :)
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
You could argue it is quicker to get to the top at the lighterwights for all those reasons.
There are more weight classes at these lower weights you can win titles at multiple weights. The younger boxers, especially a teenager, can "grow" up the weights as they mature but will have shorter careers than an average boxer.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I think one of the themes that is running through this excellent question is:. Can a fighter remain in his prime longer by moving up in weight?
Yes and no. (Come on now this is one of those times where I don't take a slightly extreme position 😂)
Yes because clearly at the lighter weights the fighter will reach the top of the curve (of his prime fighting abilities) in general a lot earlier than a heavy weight would, and in my opinion that is largely because smaller lighter people just move faster in general (of course Muhammad Ali is just one of several pieces of evidence to the contrary), but the average lightweight or welterweight simply has faster hand speed than the average cruiserweight or heavyweight for example.
AND SINCE IT IS PRETTY COMMONLY AGREED UPON THAT SPEED AND REACTION TIME ARE THE FIRST THINGS TO GO WHEN YOU ARE BEYOND YOUR PRIME, it would seem somewhat logical that moving up to a higher weight class may be able to (AND OF COURSE THIS IS CASE BY CASE), may be able to buy you a bit more time in your career....
However plenty of evidence to the contrary would go something like this:. Even if moving up gets you opponents who don't have quite the hand speed as your lower weight division, the question becomes: can you take the harder punch from the bigger guys in the higher weight classes? And as a corollary to that exact same question, do you have the power to hurt anybody at all in the higher weight class with the bigger guys? (Roberto Duran is an example of someone who clearly DID have it).
Lots of questions and lots of exceptions to what seems like it should be an easier question to answer but once you start peeling back the layers you realize it is a real conundrum
Then you got a guy's overall health. if he was able to get through his division relatively unscathed then you would think he would have enough left in the tank and not too much wear and tear to be able to succeed in a higher weight division and buy himself some more time/remain competitive for longer.
I think there are so many factors involved that in the end it is a case-by-case basis, but in general if I have to decide all things being equal, I guess most people agree that a heavyweight for example has a much longer window, as power is the last thing to go, as we have heard time and again. So I favor an affirmative answer.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoSavingByTheBell
I think one of the themes that is running through this excellent question is:. Can a fighter remain in his prime longer by moving up in weight?
Yes and no. (Come on now this is one of those times where I don't take a slightly extreme position ������)
Yes because clearly at the lighter weights the fighter will reach the top of the curve (of his prime fighting abilities) in general a lot earlier than a heavy weight would, and in my opinion that is largely because smaller lighter people just move faster in general (of course Muhammad Ali is just one of several pieces of evidence to the contrary), but the average lightweight or welterweight simply has faster hand speed than the average cruiserweight or heavyweight for example.
AND SINCE IT IS PRETTY COMMONLY AGREED UPON THAT SPEED AND REACTION TIME ARE THE FIRST THINGS TO GO WHEN YOU ARE BEYOND YOUR PRIME, it would seem somewhat logical that moving up to a higher weight class may be able to (AND OF COURSE THIS IS CASE BY CASE), may be able to buy you a bit more time in your career....
However plenty of evidence to the contrary would go something like this:. Even if moving up gets you opponents who don't have quite the hand speed as your lower weight division, the question becomes: can you take the harder punch from the bigger guys in the higher weight classes? And as a corollary to that exact same question, do you have the power to hurt anybody at all in the higher weight class with the bigger guys? (Roberto Duran is an example of someone who clearly DID have it).
Lots of questions and lots of exceptions to what seems like it should be an easier question to answer but once you start peeling back the layers you realize it is a real conundrum
Then you got a guy's overall health. if he was able to get through his division relatively unscathed then you would think he would have enough left in the tank and not too much wear and tear to be able to succeed in a higher weight division and buy himself some more time/remain competitive for longer.
I think there are so many factors involved that in the end it is a case-by-case basis, but in general if I have to decide all things being equal, I guess most people agree that a heavyweight for example has a much longer window, as power is the last thing to go, as we have heard time and again. So I favor an affirmative answer.
When cable was not available to me , I used to have a large collection of Ring Magazine and there was a discussion I read long ago about this question and if I remember it correctly it was said that boxers who went to the last round pretty often would slow down and become damaged goods the longer they fought and now the way you put it moving up to prolong your vitals as opposed to a guy like George Foreman who had short bouts because of his power and even when he went the limit he risked little safety which is something that makes lighter fighters move up. There's also the taste of the good life that speeds them up to go to another division but that is another story. It's like what your question led to how will those coming punches feel after they move up and even though Big George is a heavyweight it gave me a simple way of expressing thtt you are absolutely right..
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
You could argue it is quicker to get to the top at the lighterwights for all those reasons.
There are more weight classes at these lower weights you can win titles at multiple weights. The younger boxers, especially a teenager, can "grow" up the weights as they mature but will have shorter careers than an average boxer.
I'm not sure about it being quicker to get to the top at the lighter weights. Sure... the pound increments are smaller (3 pounds at the very bottom). But the competition is fierce, and because there are less of the shenanigans that accompany the middle weights with some of the "annointed fighters"... it is difficult to duck anyone on your way up. Eventually you're going to meet someone who's gonna either beat you or give you an epic battle.
But you're right about "growing through the weights." Most of these are just the natural growing process taking its course.
I don't know. All I know is that for many reasons, I sometimes prefer the lighter weights because of there being less drama and the B.S. that comes standard at the higher weights.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
johnsebastianmiran
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoSavingByTheBell
I think one of the themes that is running through this excellent question is:. Can a fighter remain in his prime longer by moving up in weight?
Yes and no. (Come on now this is one of those times where I don't take a slightly extreme position ������)
Yes because clearly at the lighter weights the fighter will reach the top of the curve (of his prime fighting abilities) in general a lot earlier than a heavy weight would, and in my opinion that is largely because smaller lighter people just move faster in general (of course Muhammad Ali is just one of several pieces of evidence to the contrary), but the average lightweight or welterweight simply has faster hand speed than the average cruiserweight or heavyweight for example.
AND SINCE IT IS PRETTY COMMONLY AGREED UPON THAT SPEED AND REACTION TIME ARE THE FIRST THINGS TO GO WHEN YOU ARE BEYOND YOUR PRIME, it would seem somewhat logical that moving up to a higher weight class may be able to (AND OF COURSE THIS IS CASE BY CASE), may be able to buy you a bit more time in your career....
However plenty of evidence to the contrary would go something like this:. Even if moving up gets you opponents who don't have quite the hand speed as your lower weight division, the question becomes: can you take the harder punch from the bigger guys in the higher weight classes? And as a corollary to that exact same question, do you have the power to hurt anybody at all in the higher weight class with the bigger guys? (Roberto Duran is an example of someone who clearly DID have it).
Lots of questions and lots of exceptions to what seems like it should be an easier question to answer but once you start peeling back the layers you realize it is a real conundrum
Then you got a guy's overall health. if he was able to get through his division relatively unscathed then you would think he would have enough left in the tank and not too much wear and tear to be able to succeed in a higher weight division and buy himself some more time/remain competitive for longer.
I think there are so many factors involved that in the end it is a case-by-case basis, but in general if I have to decide all things being equal, I guess most people agree that a heavyweight for example has a much longer window, as power is the last thing to go, as we have heard time and again. So I favor an affirmative answer.
When cable was not available to me , I used to have a large collection of Ring Magazine and there was a discussion I read long ago about this question and if I remember it correctly it was said that boxers who went to the last round pretty often would slow down and become damaged goods the longer they fought and now the way you put it moving up to prolong your vitals as opposed to a guy like George Foreman who had short bouts because of his power and even when he went the limit he risked little safety which is something that makes lighter fighters move up. There's also the taste of the good life that speeds them up to go to another division but that is another story. It's like what your question led to how will those coming punches feel after they move up and even though Big George is a heavyweight it gave me a simple way of expressing thtt you are absolutely right..
Great point about the taste of the good life! And great analogy there with George Foreman. And thanks for the props. 🙂
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
A hummingbird, or a water vole are smaller animals and are always bustling around a lot. They breathe faster and their physiology is geared towards a frantic life.
Whereas an elephant, or a Greenland Right Whale, move much more slowly and have a far greater life expectancy than, say, a field mouse. Being a larger animal seems to bring a longer natural lifespan.
Granted, lots of field mice tend to get swallowed up by combine harvesters and chewed up, unlike Greenland Right Whales. There is a farm next door to me, so I did a bit of research and Paul (the farmer, not the field mouse) told me that in 30 years of farming he hasn't never found a wild elephant or blue whale in his combine harvester.
The converse of that - and this is crucial - is that Khosai Galaxy for instance has never been pursued by 18th century whaling schooners, and I recall that in the 1980's George Foreman has the devil's own time shaking them off. They were just after him all the time. Relentless.
In summary, therefore, a Fighters prime may change depending on the weight class, but that all hinges on whether they are anywhere near combine harvesters or 18th century whalers.
That is all.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I wonder who fared worse here..... Foreman being called a whale, or Khaosai being called a hummingbird.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
My short answer is no.
I base all athletes on the same time frame be it boxer, basketball, NFL football, baseball.
Amateur years 18-22 NCAA in college or Olympics boxers.
Rookie Years 22-24
Prime years 25-35.
Post prime 35-40 up till the 1990s, where many athletes are lasting into their 40s be it Brett Favre, Tom Brady in NFL to Bhop, Pacman, PBF in boxing.
Their lifestyle out of the ring played a major part.
Seems regardless of the sport- the body's chemistry begins that downward slope at 30. Only those who had least amount of injuries maintain prime up to 35.
ATG's 35-45 (regardless of size, weight) IMO.
Post 35, Juan Maneul Marquez born 1973 turned pro 1993. 19 years later KO'd Pac, went the distance with Bradley.
H. Camacho born 1962, turned pro 1980. 17 years later went the distance with DLH. fought about 20 more fights and didn't get stopped.
Roberto Duran born 1951 turned pro 1968. 15 years later went the distance with a MW legend, Marvelous Marvin. 6 years later beat Iran Barkley. Fought for another decade.
Are these guys exceptions to the rule?:)
Flipping the script- JMM beat a young Juan Diaz, born in 1983 who turned pro in 2000. We don't know his true endurance/lifespan because IMO he was sidelined from high profile fights as 2010 was his last major bout. Yet fought & won his next 7 fights last being 2016. 16 years, later- the last 3 he beat were all younger by at least 3-5 years. not sure when his prime ended. But I'd wager he could compete well up to 40?
On another note- some guys who start fighting 16-17 years of age have more wear n tear?
Jorge Arce another example of a small fighter extending their years? Still in prime or due to ring smarts?
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I think the only difference is between Heavyweights and the rest. I’m not sure a fighter’s peak would change much generally. They all have to keep their reflexes and make weight etc. And everyone has a “fighting weight.”
But the heavy guys don’t rely on reflexes as much and don’t have to boil down to make weight. And also , it’s debatable, but I reckon that as a Heavyweight gets older, his power and punch resistance improve, and that would compensate a bit for any loss of speed.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
I think style and technique come into play as well. A fighter who relies on reflexes and speed will suffer as they age more so than a fighter with good fundamentals.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
I think style and technique come into play as well. A fighter who relies on reflexes and speed will suffer as they age more so than a fighter with good fundamentals.
makes you appreciate Ali for how he succeeded in his 2nd career.
Re: Does a fighter's prime change depending on the weight class?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NoSavingByTheBell
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
I think style and technique come into play as well. A fighter who relies on reflexes and speed will suffer as they age more so than a fighter with good fundamentals.
makes you appreciate Ali for how he succeeded in his 2nd career.
And guys like Hopkins.
