Can you guys give me your opions and help settle an argument
I am debating with someone who believes that calzaghe did not go to the us in his prime thus avoiding b hop and RJJ in there prime what are your opinions please
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Can you guys give me your opions and help settle an argument
I am debating with someone who believes that calzaghe did not go to the us in his prime thus avoiding b hop and RJJ in there prime what are your opinions please
its simple, he wanted to fight both of them but didnt want 2 travel back then.. Only has himself to blame i suppose...
After all,Wales is where its all at.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
hey i agree with you.. but he was prepared to fight both of them years back but wanted the fight in wales...
He really did waste the best years of his career..
Lets face it Calzaghe was never a big draw even if he would have traveled I doubt they would have fought because he never had fans like Hatton untill he beat Lacy
Only person to blame is Warren
A suprisingly candid non homerish way of looking at it,sorry Vienna you can be a bit of a homer for JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
The whole thing seriously screws with whatever legacy he was hoping to build,a highly questionable decision against an old Hopkins,beating and getting knocked down by a seriously spent Jones,and Lacy and Manfredo just got sparked.
He should have gone for it early,then we could have a real debate about his place in boxing history,but right now,Im looking at a gift decision,a has been,and two never really weres
still think he'll have a couple more fights... If he beats Dawson and then Froch, he will of beaten two prime world champions, if froch wins that is...
But if he would of gone over to the states years ago he could of made himself one of the biggest stars in boxing...
Just use the Hopkins doubling his purse from 3 to 6 million argument. Calzaghe tried to make the fight but he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do if the other guy doesn't want to fight you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Anyway, as sonny said, Calzaghe was a nobody back then. Roy could fight far easier guys for probably the same money he would have got for Calzaghe. So why fight him?
A rematch with Kessler and Froch or Dawson, then we can start talking legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
I hope he does exactly that
Not all of this is Joe's fault or even Warrens(but more Warren then Joe), but right now it stands that he's got a win over a clearly spent Jones, a "win"(haha) over a Hopkins in his 40's, a win over an injured Kessler,and two wins against guys who just got sparked badly.
This does not a legacy make, he torches Dawson or Froch,and rematches a healthy Kessler that has both hands,we're having a totally different discussion,and nobody will care about those earlier fights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterJust use the Hopkins doubling his purse from 3 to 6 million argument. Calzaghe tried to make the fight but he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do if the other guy doesn't want to fight you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Anyway, as sonny said, Calzaghe was a nobody back then. Roy could fight far easier guys for probably the same money he would have got for Calzaghe. So why fight him?
pretty much spot on
Nobody stateside took calzaghe genuinely seriously despite having that 0 on his record many pundits just took him as a decent european challenger that would be more of a foil and a spoiler for the likes of jones/toney/hopkins etc
It was only when jeff lacy came to manchester for a mandatory challenge that the likes of HBO stood up and realised there was actually a genuine hall of fame legend that had gone relatively unnoticed.
The same thing kinda happened to sven ottke and mikkel kessler is struggling with the same problem!!
he beat hopkins who is still one of the top 5 fighters in the world, Stop making excuses up for kessler he got beat end of..
He beat Lacy, who everyone had as the favourite so he cant of been that shit, and of course eubank, who he beat more convincingly then anyone..
Whether he was injured or not Kessler, doesnt warrant a rematch. He got in the ring, lost comprehensively and Calzaghe has nothing to gain from another fight with him
BHOP probably didn't want to move up to SMW to fight a nobody. Why bother? Middleweight was the better division. BUt when the time came BHOP was ready to fight. The irony for BHOP is, back in the day his superiority over Calzaghe would be definite, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterJust use the Hopkins doubling his purse from 3 to 6 million argument. Calzaghe tried to make the fight but he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do if the other guy doesn't want to fight you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Anyway, as sonny said, Calzaghe was a nobody back then. Roy could fight far easier guys for probably the same money he would have got for Calzaghe. So why fight him?
That is wrong. He dominated RJJ. You can't qualify that win at all. He definitively beat RJJ evidenced by the fact that Calzaghe didn't really fight the last two rounds. RJJ was badly cut, and Calzaghe completely avoided punching the cut. The Hopkins fight was close, but look how good Hopkins still is: in his next performance Hopkins completely shut down the middleweight champion of the world. Yet in the Calzaghe fight, he was content to run and clinch. Hopkins, the mastermind, fought a bad fight against Calzaghe. It wasn't by accident. Calzaghe took him out of his element. Moreover, that fact that Calzaghe went down twice and won both fights is further testament to his greatness, not a knock on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyA suprisingly candid non homerish way of looking at it,sorry Vienna you can be a bit of a homer for JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
The whole thing seriously screws with whatever legacy he was hoping to build,a highly questionable decision against an old Hopkins,beating and getting knocked down by a seriously spent Jones,and Lacy and Manfredo just got sparked.
He should have gone for it early,then we could have a real debate about his place in boxing history,but right now,Im looking at a gift decision,a has been,and two never really weres
His legacy should and will be discounted by the lack of champion caliber fighters he fought in his prime, but it is still a very, very good legacy. Anyone who has Bhop and RJJ on his list of wins, regardless of when the fight took place, has a good legacy. Add Kessler, Lacy, and Bika to the list, and you have a very good legacy. Not the best, but a very good one.
Don't think so. There were no names at middleweight either. It took Trinidad moving up to give Hopkins a BIG NAME fight. After that (which is when the Calzaghe offer was made) he fought no-names like Hakkar, and Robert Allen for the 50th time, before little Oscar obliged him with a big payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMBHOP probably didn't want to move up to SMW to fight a nobody. Why bother? Middleweight was the better division. BUt when the time came BHOP was ready to fight. The irony for BHOP is, back in the day his superiority over Calzaghe would be definite, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterJust use the Hopkins doubling his purse from 3 to 6 million argument. Calzaghe tried to make the fight but he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do if the other guy doesn't want to fight you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Anyway, as sonny said, Calzaghe was a nobody back then. Roy could fight far easier guys for probably the same money he would have got for Calzaghe. So why fight him?
BOTH are probably very pleased the way things turned out (the fight not happening in 2002). When they finally fought they were both much bigger names.. earning much more dough ;)
Fenster is right the Middleweight division at that time, was no real better than the Super Middleweight division.
Its a shame Bernard Hopkins couldn't get fights with some of the best Middleweights of the early 90s like Mike McCallum, James Toney, Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan, Steve Collins.
I think Bernard Hopkins missed out on a great opportunity with all those names. But then again maybe not because i don't think a raw Bernard Hopkins could beat James Toney, Mike McCallum, Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan. And even Steve Collins would be a very rough night for him.
The only instance I can perceive for talking about what a fighter didn't do was in the case of Salvador Sanchez.
In the case of Joe Calzaghe, he had a full career, why talk about what he didn't, should have or could have done?
Well said Alan ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
RJJ wouldnt leave america after what happened in the olympics and as for Hopkins he took 3 attempts to win the middleweight title and defended against blown up welterweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Calzaghe's beaten everyone he's boxed. Something RJJ or bhop have not.
Theres no point to this thread.
CALZAGHES the man
Brilliantly simple & accurate post that answers the question asked .......Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterJust use the Hopkins doubling his purse from 3 to 6 million argument. Calzaghe tried to make the fight but he wasn't interested. Nothing you can do if the other guy doesn't want to fight you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Anyway, as sonny said, Calzaghe was a nobody back then. Roy could fight far easier guys for probably the same money he would have got for Calzaghe. So why fight him?
"THREAD OVER :lolololol:"
:coolclick:..................................:cool click:
OK, fair enough. But the point remains that there was little motivation to move up to SMW. Better to stick around and unite MW.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterDon't think so. There were no names at middleweight either. It took Trinidad moving up to give Hopkins a BIG NAME fight. After that (which is when the Calzaghe offer was made) he fought no-names like Hakkar, and Robert Allen for the 50th time, before little Oscar obliged him with a big payday.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMBHOP probably didn't want to move up to SMW to fight a nobody. Why bother? Middleweight was the better division. BUt when the time came BHOP was ready to fight. The irony for BHOP is, back in the day his superiority over Calzaghe would be definite, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
BOTH are probably very pleased the way things turned out (the fight not happening in 2002). When they finally fought they were both much bigger names.. earning much more dough ;)
IMO the Hopkins of ten years ago was a much better fighter than he is now, he had better physical tools, and more than enough savvy to take out calzaghe. Waiting all this time tended to equalize the two, and maybe tip a bit in Calzaghe's favour.
So he needs to rematch a guy he's already comfortably beaten then fight either an unproven contender or an unproven champion who just about managed to beat Glen Johnson to have a legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyA rematch with Kessler and Froch or Dawson, then we can start talking legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
I hope he does exactly that
Not all of this is Joe's fault or even Warrens(but more Warren then Joe), but right now it stands that he's got a win over a clearly spent Jones, a "win"(haha) over a Hopkins in his 40's, a win over an injured Kessler,and two wins against guys who just got sparked badly.
This does not a legacy make, he torches Dawson or Froch,and rematches a healthy Kessler that has both hands,we're having a totally different discussion,and nobody will care about those earlier fights.
He fought a tight fight,against a guy with only one hand,yeah I think that should be a rematchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo he needs to rematch a guy he's already comfortably beaten then fight either an unproven contender or an unproven champion who just about managed to beat Glen Johnson to have a legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyA rematch with Kessler and Froch or Dawson, then we can start talking legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
I hope he does exactly that
Not all of this is Joe's fault or even Warrens(but more Warren then Joe), but right now it stands that he's got a win over a clearly spent Jones, a "win"(haha) over a Hopkins in his 40's, a win over an injured Kessler,and two wins against guys who just got sparked badly.
This does not a legacy make, he torches Dawson or Froch,and rematches a healthy Kessler that has both hands,we're having a totally different discussion,and nobody will care about those earlier fights.
He had a bad hand in the same way that Pavlik had the flu the day before Hopkins beat him. Just two losers making excuses for losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyHe fought a tight fight,against a guy with only one hand,yeah I think that should be a rematchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo he needs to rematch a guy he's already comfortably beaten then fight either an unproven contender or an unproven champion who just about managed to beat Glen Johnson to have a legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
a guy with one hand? seemed to me he could throw pretty good bombs of uppercuts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyHe fought a tight fight,against a guy with only one hand,yeah I think that should be a rematchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo he needs to rematch a guy he's already comfortably beaten then fight either an unproven contender or an unproven champion who just about managed to beat Glen Johnson to have a legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
The point to this thread was not to determine weather calzaghe is the man nor was it a comparison to b hop or RJJ, it was to help settle a debate and get people opinions on weather he should have gone to the states earlier or not, so if you feel there is no point to the thread dont read it then okQuote:
Originally Posted by SEANIERJJ wouldnt leave america after what happened in the olympics and as for Hopkins he took 3 attempts to win the middleweight title and defended against blown up welterweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrodub
Calzaghe's beaten everyone he's boxed. Something RJJ or bhop have not.
Theres no point to this thread.
CALZAGHES the man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer MonkeyHe fought a tight fight,against a guy with only one hand,yeah I think that should be a rematchQuote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo he needs to rematch a guy he's already comfortably beaten then fight either an unproven contender or an unproven champion who just about managed to beat Glen Johnson to have a legacy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Joe has had to do that & on numerous occasions too, has he has always still come thru to deliver the goods .... hands damaged or not...
Its a part of the make up that creates a champion & assists them when staying a champion at the top level,
Ya take ya fight, Ya take ya chance....If Kess's hand was damaged only he knows the true extent & wheter he should fight or not....
But nobody put a gun to his head to make him fight JC, he chose to do that ... so he must have fancied it enough to get in the ring & go for it, which he did in a decent fight....
But he lost to JC & lost fairly, he had his chance....There are lots of defeated fighters who fought good fights for titles who would want re matches & for obvious & various reasons...
Ya could end up saying then that anyone who goes the distance can have or create a reason or argument for both losing & wanting a re match..
You can make a list of re matches for any successful champion, most on there hit list would want another crack, be it for redemption, pride, money or whatever...
But the champion doesnt have to chase re matches ...... Not until he is defeated at least, then he goes on the list with all the others as WANTING TO BE A CHAMPION
:badass::badass::badass:
Last time i checked...the MAJORITY of big fights and big time fighters fight in the states (and i don't say that trying to be nationalistic...just a clear fact). So i have never given much credence to the argument that the reason prime Jones vs. Calzaghe didn't happen years ago...was Roys fault. He was the biggest star in boxing at that time...fighting in the country where the biggest fights take place. So he is supposed to go to Wales to fight Joe?! If Joe had the balls and a clear sense of his legacy...he would have brought his ass to the states back then. But what did he do instead...stay in comforts of Wales...until finally he comes to the states towards the end of his career to fight two 40+ year old fighters. Bravo Joe!!
Joe had no choice after realising the other two ya mention would not fight Joe unless it was in there own backyard....Dont forget that during all this time Joe was a champion too ....Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
So why bow down to the other champions whims ... Joe had as much right to want to fight at home as the other two do....& if Joe had been an easy enough fight for them, whty wait, why not come over & kick his ass ... because they didnt fancy it...
So after years of waiting & of trying to get the fights at home & realising they will never come, he goes over to the states & wins both fights, as a 36 year old, no spring chicken himself...But he did it & won, yet its still not good enough:shocking:
:badass::badass::badass:
I'll assume you are either joking or just completely ignorant. Did you read the beginning of my post? Boxing is a business. And where it's the biggest business is right here in the states (for better or worse). Roy Jones was a superstar. Joe, champion or not, was not (outside of Wales at least). But you want me to be foolish enough to believe the reason Joe didn't come to the US back then was because of his pride?! Worse, you actually think "after years of waiting & trying" he decides to finally come to the states...to fight and prove his worth? Now that's funny. Maybe, just maybe...Joe waited for the RIGHT time to come here and fight guys like Roy and Bernard. But hey...trying to convince Joe fans such as yourself otherwise is pointless. George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioJoe had no choice after realising the other two ya mention would not fight Joe unless it was in there own backyard....Dont forget that during all this time Joe was a champion too ....Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
So why bow down to the other champions whims ... Joe had as much right to want to fight at home as the other two do....& if Joe had been an easy enough fight for them, whty wait, why not come over & kick his ass ... because they didnt fancy it...
So after years of waiting & of trying to get the fights at home & realising they will never come, he goes over to the states & wins both fights, as a 36 year old, no spring chicken himself...But he did it & won, yet its still not good enough:shocking:
:badass::badass::badass:
Calzaghe i don't belive has "ducked" anyone, he may not have necessarily fought the people we wanted to see him fight in the right decade....but he's pretty bad ass at what he does. I do belive his time has passed and missed out on the respect and fame he wants especially from people in the states but hey we're talking about him aren't we there are tons of fighters he in the states who we aren't. Joe imo isn't going to get the opportunity to prove how good he is but that doesn't necessarily make him a bad fighter or ducker punk whatever you want to call him. If i were him i'd retire and leave the young guys alone, he could win, but if he lost ......
There's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI'll assume you are either joking or just completely ignorant. Did you read the beginning of my post? Boxing is a business. And where it's the biggest business is right here in the states (for better or worse). Roy Jones was a superstar. Joe, champion or not, was not (outside of Wales at least). But you want me to be foolish enough to believe the reason Joe didn't come to the US back then was because of his pride?! Worse, you actually think "after years of waiting & trying" he decides to finally come to the states...to fight and prove his worth? Now that's funny. Maybe, just maybe...Joe waited for the RIGHT time to come here and fight guys like Roy and Bernard. But hey...trying to convince Joe fans such as yourself otherwise is pointless. George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioJoe had no choice after realising the other two ya mention would not fight Joe unless it was in there own backyard....Dont forget that during all this time Joe was a champion too ....Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
So why bow down to the other champions whims ... Joe had as much right to want to fight at home as the other two do....& if Joe had been an easy enough fight for them, whty wait, why not come over & kick his ass ... because they didnt fancy it...
So after years of waiting & of trying to get the fights at home & realising they will never come, he goes over to the states & wins both fights, as a 36 year old, no spring chicken himself...But he did it & won, yet its still not good enough:shocking:
:badass::badass::badass:
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
Nice try. I never said Joe was a "no name"...i said he was not a superstar. And was there a news flash i missed...is Joe, even NOW, a BIG name here in the states? And how convenient...that in Joe's mind (and the mind of some of his fans) he became a "big name" just recently...and hence finally fought Roy and Bernard when they are both over 40. If Joe had the balls back then to come to the states...you don't think Jones and Hopkins would have fought him? Bottom line...Joe Calzaghe didn't actively pursue to come here, to the states (where boxing is at it's biggest stage), years ago. You can sugar coat his career anyway you want...but the smokescreen that are his recent fights here don't make up for his padded record at the comforts of his home in Wales for the majority of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThere's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI'll assume you are either joking or just completely ignorant. Did you read the beginning of my post? Boxing is a business. And where it's the biggest business is right here in the states (for better or worse). Roy Jones was a superstar. Joe, champion or not, was not (outside of Wales at least). But you want me to be foolish enough to believe the reason Joe didn't come to the US back then was because of his pride?! Worse, you actually think "after years of waiting & trying" he decides to finally come to the states...to fight and prove his worth? Now that's funny. Maybe, just maybe...Joe waited for the RIGHT time to come here and fight guys like Roy and Bernard. But hey...trying to convince Joe fans such as yourself otherwise is pointless. George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddio
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
Nice try?Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinNice try. I never said Joe was a "no name"...i said he was not a superstar. And was there a news flash i missed...is Joe, even NOW, a BIG name here in the states? And how convenient...that in Joe's mind (and the mind of some of his fans) he became a "big name" just recently...and hence finally fought Roy and Bernard when they are both over 40. If Joe had the balls back then to come to the states...you don't think Jones and Hopkins would have fought him? Bottom line...Joe Calzaghe didn't actively pursue to come here, to the states (where boxing is at it's biggest stage), years ago. You can sugar coat his career anyway you want...but the smokescreen that are his recent fights here don't make up for his padded record at the comforts of his home in Wales for the majority of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThere's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
From your first post i thought you was making a reasonable point.. but now i'm thinking you just want to bash Calzaghe. :rolleyes:
Joe is currently a TOP THREE ranked P4P fighter (using The Ring). He never entered the The Ring P4P ratings until he beat Lacy. On the back of that performance, he was snapped up by HBO.. and in turn was able to land BIG money fights against the likes of Hopkins and Roy. That would make him a RECENT big name, no?
Here's shitty pants Joe trying to get a fight with Hopkins before becoming a BIG NAME - "A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30th, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank Warren and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard. We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money would he want if he did. The response we got was $3million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said 'Okay, done.' Frank Warren agreed on the spot, Don King agreed and we agreed so as far as we were concerned all parties were singing off the one hymm sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard. Either that day or the next day, they came with a new demand: $6million, double the sum that had been agreed, the deal blew up.....he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear.
Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought the big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."
- Jay Larkin, then Showtime TV Network's Senior Vice-President of Sports and Event Programming.
What did Joe do wrong here? It shows he was TRYING to make a fight with Hopkins in the States, no?
;)
Thank you ... because Fensters post saved me some typing...& to zhubin There is a very naive school of thought by us deluded JC fans .....Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThere's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI'll assume you are either joking or just completely ignorant. Did you read the beginning of my post? Boxing is a business. And where it's the biggest business is right here in the states (for better or worse). Roy Jones was a superstar. Joe, champion or not, was not (outside of Wales at least). But you want me to be foolish enough to believe the reason Joe didn't come to the US back then was because of his pride?! Worse, you actually think "after years of waiting & trying" he decides to finally come to the states...to fight and prove his worth? Now that's funny. Maybe, just maybe...Joe waited for the RIGHT time to come here and fight guys like Roy and Bernard. But hey...trying to convince Joe fans such as yourself otherwise is pointless. George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddio
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
& THAT IS,
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE JOE CALZAGHE WAS SIMPLY TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE UNLESS THEY WAS TO BE GIVEN FORT KNOX FOR THERE EFFORTS BACK THEN.....
& Had Joe not gone to the states eventually, the fights would never have been made .... because Hopkins & Jones sure as hell had made it clear enough that there was no way that they would be coming to Europe let alone GB any time soon FACT.
3 Other Facts.....
1) No, I wasn't Joking...But surely you was when saying ..
"George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment"
2) No, Im not ignorant, But to high-lite a pretty good deifnition of what ignorance is read the above quote from yourself, because for you to typcast JC fans per se as if we are robotic & lacking in any boxing insite where JC is concerned ... & for you to presume that Im some kinda JC cheer leader that bats his eye lashes at anything he does in the ring ...IS IGNORANT...
3) However, whatever, whenever....JC went to the states when it made good sense (A buisness you said, did you read the beggining of your post) & beat both the fighters that you mention & got more money than he would have a decade ago....
:badass::badass::badass:
Maybe just maybe Hopkins didn't want to move up to SMW? Why would he want to? Clearly Calzaghe needed Hopkins more than Hopkins needed Calzaghe. If Calzaghe was a middleweight, the story could easily have been a little different. Staying at middleweight was clearly the best move for Hopkins, as things would turn out.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioThank you ... because Fensters post saved me some typing...& to zhubin There is a very naive school of thought by us deluded JC fans .....Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThere's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
& THAT IS,
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE JOE CALZAGHE WAS SIMPLY TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE UNLESS THEY WAS TO BE GIVEN FORT KNOX FOR THERE EFFORTS BACK THEN.....
& Had Joe not gone to the states eventually, the fights would never have been made .... because Hopkins & Jones sure as hell had made it clear enough that there was no way that they would be coming to Europe let alone GB any time soon FACT.
.
.
.
I apologize for writing that you might be ignorant. When things get heated...sometimes things are said that should't be. Fenster, the business end of boxing is a he said/she said affair. One fighter/promoter can say one thing...while another has a completely different side of the story. And let's say the Bernard fight wasn't his fault...that still doesn't excuse the majority of his career, until just recently, being in Wales. I am fully aware of Calzaghe's p4p status...but that doesn't translate to him being a "big name"...especially here in the states. The PPV sales for the Jones fight where very disappointing...imagine if Calzaghe was fighting someone of a lesser name than Jones here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioThank you ... because Fensters post saved me some typing...& to zhubin There is a very naive school of thought by us deluded JC fans .....Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterThere's enough quotes and stories from people involved with Hopkins and Calzaghe to SHOW Calzaghe was chasing a fight that didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
AS you just said "Boxing is a business." So when Joe became a BIG enough name, to earn both sides big enough money, the fights happened. That would make sense from a business point of view, right? Whereas fighting a no-name, who is CLEARLY extremely talented, would not have made sense back then, right?
So either way there's no dodging or ducking bollocks going on. The fights happen when they make business sense. ;)
& THAT IS,
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE JOE CALZAGHE WAS SIMPLY TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE UNLESS THEY WAS TO BE GIVEN FORT KNOX FOR THERE EFFORTS BACK THEN.....
& Had Joe not gone to the states eventually, the fights would never have been made .... because Hopkins & Jones sure as hell had made it clear enough that there was no way that they would be coming to Europe let alone GB any time soon FACT.
3 Other Facts.....
1) No, I wasn't Joking...But surely you was when saying ..
"George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment"
2) No, Im not ignorant, But to high-lite a pretty good deifnition of what ignorance is read the above quote from yourself, because for you to typcast JC fans per se as if we are robotic & lacking in any boxing insite where JC is concerned ... & for you to presume that Im some kinda JC cheer leader that bats his eye lashes at anything he does in the ring ...IS IGNORANT...
3) However, whatever, whenever....JC went to the states when it made good sense (A buisness you said, did you read the beggining of your post) & beat both the fighters that you mention & got more money than he would have a decade ago....
:badass::badass::badass:
The PPV sales were even WORSE for Hopkins-Pavlik (190,000). I think ALL the recent PPVs are doing bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI apologize for writing that you might be ignorant. When things get heated...sometimes things are said that should't be. Fenster, the business end of boxing is a he said/she said affair. One fighter/promoter can say one thing...while another has a completely different side of the story. And let's say the Bernard fight wasn't his fault...that still doesn't excuse the majority of his career, until just recently, being in Wales. I am fully aware of Calzaghe's p4p status...but that doesn't translate to him being a "big name"...especially here in the states. The PPV sales for the Jones fight where very disappointing...imagine if Calzaghe was fighting someone of a lesser name than Jones here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioThank you ... because Fensters post saved me some typing...& to zhubin There is a very naive school of thought by us deluded JC fans .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
& THAT IS,
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE JOE CALZAGHE WAS SIMPLY TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE UNLESS THEY WAS TO BE GIVEN FORT KNOX FOR THERE EFFORTS BACK THEN.....
& Had Joe not gone to the states eventually, the fights would never have been made .... because Hopkins & Jones sure as hell had made it clear enough that there was no way that they would be coming to Europe let alone GB any time soon FACT.
3 Other Facts.....
1) No, I wasn't Joking...But surely you was when saying ..
"George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment"
2) No, Im not ignorant, But to high-lite a pretty good deifnition of what ignorance is read the above quote from yourself, because for you to typcast JC fans per se as if we are robotic & lacking in any boxing insite where JC is concerned ... & for you to presume that Im some kinda JC cheer leader that bats his eye lashes at anything he does in the ring ...IS IGNORANT...
3) However, whatever, whenever....JC went to the states when it made good sense (A buisness you said, did you read the beggining of your post) & beat both the fighters that you mention & got more money than he would have a decade ago....
:badass::badass::badass:
But that's the whole point. Even when Calzaghe gained worldwide recognition as a P4P fighter, and with HBO backing, he still doesn't do great numbers in the States. Boxing is about money.
Calzaghe was a LESSER name back then. So maybe the fights didn't make sense to the likes of Roy and Hopkins. Why fight a dangerous foreigner that no one knows ;)
Mate apologies fully accepted ... ill take you of my ignorant list now lol, & no worries re getting heated ... we all do it & I think we will both agree that where JC is concerned opinions in some areas will always be divided ... & a good job too as we would not be on forums debating would we:lolololol:Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI apologize for writing that you might be ignorant. When things get heated...sometimes things are said that should't be. Fenster, the business end of boxing is a he said/she said affair. One fighter/promoter can say one thing...while another has a completely different side of the story. And let's say the Bernard fight wasn't his fault...that still doesn't excuse the majority of his career, until just recently, being in Wales. I am fully aware of Calzaghe's p4p status...but that doesn't translate to him being a "big name"...especially here in the states. The PPV sales for the Jones fight where very disappointing...imagine if Calzaghe was fighting someone of a lesser name than Jones here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamdaddioThank you ... because Fensters post saved me some typing...& to zhubin There is a very naive school of thought by us deluded JC fans .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
& THAT IS,
MAYBE, JUST MAYBE JOE CALZAGHE WAS SIMPLY TOO BIG A RISK TO TAKE UNLESS THEY WAS TO BE GIVEN FORT KNOX FOR THERE EFFORTS BACK THEN.....
& Had Joe not gone to the states eventually, the fights would never have been made .... because Hopkins & Jones sure as hell had made it clear enough that there was no way that they would be coming to Europe let alone GB any time soon FACT.
3 Other Facts.....
1) No, I wasn't Joking...But surely you was when saying ..
"George Foreman could come out of retirement....fight Joe and lose....and some of y'all would find a way to dress that up as an accomplishment"
2) No, Im not ignorant, But to high-lite a pretty good deifnition of what ignorance is read the above quote from yourself, because for you to typcast JC fans per se as if we are robotic & lacking in any boxing insite where JC is concerned ... & for you to presume that Im some kinda JC cheer leader that bats his eye lashes at anything he does in the ring ...IS IGNORANT...
3) However, whatever, whenever....JC went to the states when it made good sense (A buisness you said, did you read the beggining of your post) & beat both the fighters that you mention & got more money than he would have a decade ago....
:badass::badass::badass:
:badass::badass::badass:
Lol ... even if ya dont agree with Fenster ... what he states & the facts he uses really do make sense tho...
Lots of sense too :lolololol:
:badass::badass::badass: