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Have just watched his fight against Arguello and really liked his stlye. That recklessness against a feared puncher was very exciting and impressive. I was wondering if people could tell me about him. Ive heard that Leonard ducked him and that the only greats on his record are Cervantes and Arguello. However what was the rest of his resume like? Was it a good 140 pound era and were does he rank with other light welter greats?
Thats about it his two best wins were against Antonio Cervantes, Alexis Arguello x2, both past there prime but both still very good wins. Although the 2nd Alexis Arguello fight, Alexis Arguello was seriously shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Cobra
It wasn't a strong era but he still would do well in mythical match ups, i've never seen anyone as aggressive as Aaron Pryor.
He was one scary/crazy guy in the ring, he also had drug problems which was sad to hear, and his problems catch up to him in his only loss, a fight that should have never happened.
Get any of his fights prior to the Gary Hinton fight, there all wildly entertaining.
i no pryor was trying to get leonard in the ring for years he even gate crashed leonards press confrences. weather leonard was ducking him or not,or the money wasnt there who nos, it would of been a helluva a fight thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Cobra
Cobra, not sure if you already have but stick BoxRec in your favourites it's handy as hell for checking out fighters ;)
For example click this
Aaron Pryor
Ta daaaa!
Can someone tell me how you get pictures under your text? Thanks
i think u do it on ur signature mate then enable it to come up on each postQuote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Cobra
Leonard fought successfully against Duran, Hearns, Benitez, and Hagler. I can't possibly imagine he was afraid of Pryor.
It's possible...too high of a risk too low of a reward...Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
If that's true then Leonard made a business decision. The money wasn't right. But Leonard fought tougher guys and won, so there is no way in hell that Leonard "fears" Pryor.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherIt's possible...too high of a risk too low of a reward...Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
That would have been a fun fight to see at 140. Pryor was a natural at Junior Welterweight and that would have been an all-time fight that we would talk about. It would be in the same class as Haglar-Hearns, Ali-Frazier, Leonard-Duran, Barrera-Morales, etc.
What's funny about that comment is...Now a days when someone makes a "business" decision they're "bad for the sport" , "afraid" etc... funny Leonard gets a pass..Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMIf that's true then Leonard made a business decision. The money wasn't right. But Leonard fought tougher guys and won, so there is no way in hell that Leonard "fears" Pryor.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherIt's possible...too high of a risk too low of a reward...Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
IMO there is no way Sugar Ray ducked Pryor. Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Hagler and Norris are all Hall of Famers. Pryor simly wasn't as big a draw as any of those guys. When Ray was the Welter Champ he even fought a very tough Ayub Kalule to win the Jr. Middle weight title when he could have picked up that title vs. a much easier champ.
There always going to be guys that get missed. Pryor was one of them.
Funny? What ever are you talking about? Dude, I never said business decisions were bad for the sport, and I sure ain't giving Leonard a pass. Leonard beat Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, I don't imagine he has any problems in the confidence department.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherWhat's funny about that comment is...Now a days when someone makes a "business" decision they're "bad for the sport" , "afraid" etc... funny Leonard gets a pass..Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMIf that's true then Leonard made a business decision. The money wasn't right. But Leonard fought tougher guys and won, so there is no way in hell that Leonard "fears" Pryor.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
What do you think about business decisions? You're a Floyd fan aren't you? There's a walking talking business decision if there ever was one.
IMO Leonard have would have picked Pryor apart and knocked him out. But that's a different story.
By that logic, then it could be said PBF hasQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
hernandez, corrales, manfredy, castillo x2 , hatton, ODLH, chavez... so then its okay to miss mosley because the money isnt right.
Business decisions are fine...no im not a floyd fan, but i respect his talent and at the same time hate his "business decisions", having said that I've wanted him to fight shane for the past several years just to see it because those are two of my top 5 all time...and since RJJ was too big to see a fight with him and shane then the next two on the list are actually plausible.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMFunny? What ever are you talking about? Dude, I never said business decisions were bad for the sport, and I sure ain't giving Leonard a pass. Leonard beat Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, I don't imagine he has any problems in the confidence department.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherWhat's funny about that comment is...Now a days when someone makes a "business" decision they're "bad for the sport" , "afraid" etc... funny Leonard gets a pass..Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
What do you think about business decisions? You're a Floyd fan aren't you? There's a walking talking business decision if there ever was one.
IMO Leonard have would have picked Pryor apart and knocked him out. But that's a different story.
fair enough. Hey, I would have liked to see Leonard fight Pryor too. All I'm saying is, sure Leonard may have passed on an offer to fight Pryor, or maybe Pryor called him out and Leonard declined, but I just don't think "fear of losing", or "risk of losing", was a prime factor for Leonard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherBusiness decisions are fine...no im not a floyd fan, but i respect his talent and at the same time hate his "business decisions", having said that I've wanted him to fight shane for the past several years just to see it because those are two of my top 5 all time...and since RJJ was too big to see a fight with him and shane then the next two on the list are actually plausible.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMFunny? What ever are you talking about? Dude, I never said business decisions were bad for the sport, and I sure ain't giving Leonard a pass. Leonard beat Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, I don't imagine he has any problems in the confidence department.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
What do you think about business decisions? You're a Floyd fan aren't you? There's a walking talking business decision if there ever was one.
IMO Leonard have would have picked Pryor apart and knocked him out. But that's a different story.
Funny thing about Floyd. I read an interview with him once, and on the question of "ducking" the top welterweights he never denied it, he came right out and said more or less that since he had already moved up four or five divisions, he felt no obligation to call out the big prime welterweights.
regards.
Pryor to me is overrated because of the hbo thing they did on his fight. He was good but he was good in a division of alot of week comp. He could of gone up to welterweight and fought few times to get Leonard but did not. When he did move up he lost so he waited to long to move up really. As for Leonard ducking him he choose to fight Hearns instead to unify and also got a injury which pretty much robbed Leonard of alot of prime years.
Yeah Leonard would have picked him apart for sure. I saw that crazy bastard Pryor race across the ring at the start of the first round once, right into a wild punch, go down backwards, flip over onto his feat and go chasing after the guy swinging with one glove while the ref tried to hold onto the other arm to give him an eight count. Dont think Leonard would have much trouble with that kind of suicidal attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMFunny? What ever are you talking about? Dude, I never said business decisions were bad for the sport, and I sure ain't giving Leonard a pass. Leonard beat Duran, Hearns, and Hagler, I don't imagine he has any problems in the confidence department.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherWhat's funny about that comment is...Now a days when someone makes a "business" decision they're "bad for the sport" , "afraid" etc... funny Leonard gets a pass..Quote:
Originally Posted by CGM
What do you think about business decisions? You're a Floyd fan aren't you? There's a walking talking business decision if there ever was one.
IMO Leonard have would have picked Pryor apart and knocked him out. But that's a different story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ducked Pryor no but self admittingly he was not looking to get in the ring with Aaron without good reason. Pryor was a freaking animal.
Such is the art of sports negotiation. When you are going for the best deal you can get, then sometimes you need to walk away in order that people will take you seriously. In other words, sometimes you need to call their bluff. And then other things happen. Other fights, injuries, and the next thing you know it's too late for Leonard - Pryor.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ducked Pryor no but self admittingly he was not looking to get in the ring with Aaron without good reason. Pryor was a freaking animal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSVo7...eature=related
Aaron Pryor fans this one for ya'll
what time is it, ITS HAWK TIME
I think pryor was very good fighter who was unlucky that the best fighters of his era passed him by much like tszyu also they both also decided to spend their careers in in the light-welterweight division rather than chasing the bigger fights in other divisions like other boxers and i think both are at least in the top 5 LW ever. but i cant see tszyu lasting more than 8 rounds with pryor, who reminds me a bit of hatton when he has an opponent on the ropes.
If Pryor wanted it so bad why didn't he move up to welterweight then? It was the hottest division back then with marquee names. Pryor was an animal indeed but at 140. Leonard was busy making fights with Hearns and Duran, which were much bigger draws than Pryor.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahnQuote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ducked Pryor no but self admittingly he was not looking to get in the ring with Aaron without good reason. Pryor was a freaking animal.
SRL took on Hearns who was more fearsome than Pryor and probably damaged/shortened his career in doing so. The Leonard that beat Hearns would have beaten Pryor and any other Welter ever bar SRR. The detached retina shortened his career.
IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR
Thats pretty impossible to say considering theres hardly anything of SRR at Welterweight, hell except for that clip Oumafan showed us a few days ago. I don't think i had ever seen SRR at Welterweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyIMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR
I remember the guy who runs my boxing gym who saw SRR live a number of times saying that the SRR who fought at MW was only about 25% of the WW he was, & having seen the MW footage, if you take the quote with a pinch of salt & say he was 75% at MW then he was still better than any other WW ever. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyIMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR
I don't really need to see the footage of SRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.
People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."
How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?
I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)
I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.
leonard as has been said would not risk his tittles and possible high earning fights to fight pryor ,and why should pryor have to fight at welterweight before getting a tittle shot,he was a dominant champion who in this era would get a tittle shot at a higher weight with-out having to, pryor would crowd leonard just like duran did in thier first fight and get the same result setting up a great trilogy wheather or not pryor would win that trilogy is up in the air .....just my opinion
You might be right, but really I don't think so. Pryor was good at crowding inferior (to him) fighters, but I don't think he could so easily have his way against Leonard. Sure Leonard lost it in the trenches against Duran, but that was in part because Leonard chose to fight there in the first fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by cpss
Fighters who say they would rather die than quit on the stool are idiots! Aaron Pryor is an idiot for saying that, tell the same story to Sugar Ray Robinson, Smokin' Joe Frazier and Oscar De La Hoya all who quit on the stool. Tell it to Roberto Duran who quit mid round in a fight that was close!!! Maybe they all didn't have the right bottle!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
thats what i always thought. theres just not enough proof for me to consider him the best welter ever if i never seen him fight in that weightclass.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI don't really need to see the footage of SRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.
People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."
How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?
I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)
I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.
Well im not the person that says that Donny, i can't really tell how great he is at Welterweight because i've never seen a full fight of his at Welterweight, all we can go by is article's and other peoples opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyI don't really need to see the footage of SRR.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.
People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."
How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?
I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)
I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.
But from the footage i have seen of his at Middleweight, he looked pretty damn good. And well ahead of his time, so i can assume he was quite a bit better at his peak and at his natural weightclass.
But one thing i do disagree with you on Donny is the Middleweight thing, obviously SRR would lose quite alot at Middleweight. Because he wasn't at his best best weightclass, and he was past his peak. Plus he fought countless times at that weightclass.
Where as SRL only fought there once, and Thomas Hearns, only fought at Middleweight a few times. So obviously they wouldn't lose as much, thats pretty obvious.
SRR lost to Randolph Turpin, but didn't he bravely beat him in the rematch ? even great boxers always meet a style that cancel's there one out. But atleast he beat him in the return.
Where as Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley at Middleweight, a fighter i truly believe would of been embarrassed by SRR. And Thomas Hearns lost the rematch aswell which is a big difference.
At Middleweight he was good Ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.
Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)
The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.
Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.
SRR was easily ahead on all the score cards against Joey Maxim until he collapsed in the 13th round from the intense heat due to fighting outside under 103 degree sun. Shit I think the ref passed out too. So to say he wasn't successful is misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyAt Middleweight he was good Ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.
Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)
The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.
Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.
I understand what your saying Donny but i think you are underrating, Sugar Ray Robinson. He was decades ahead of his time, the left hook he KO'ed Gene Fulmer with is possible the quickest/greatest left hook i've ever seen. That was like a RJJ type performance and KO.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyAt Middleweight he was good Ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.
Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)
The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.
Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.
I don't think it was to do with him not doing well at moving through the weightclasses, i think it was due to him being past his prime. And despite all that he still beat some very impressive names.
Sugar Ray Leonard beat a faded Marvin Hagler, who was on the slide. I think Marvin Hagler was for certain ready to be taken. By alot of the young upcoming Middleweights at that time,
It was an impressive display by Sugar Ray Leonard who was coming off a lay off. But Marvin Hagler was on the slide, especially after that brutal war with John Mugabi, which took alot out of him. Had Sugar Ray Leonard fought on at Middleweight, and had fought the young upcoming Middleweights. He for certain would of lost.
By the way Sugar Ray Leonard fought Donny Lalonde at catchweight. Sugar Ray Leonard was 165 where as Donny Lalonde was at 167. The difference being with Sugar Ray Robinson, he was 157 when he fought Joey Maxim, and Joey Maxim was at 173.
Sugar Ray Robinson was winning the fight until the unreal heat got to him, he was suffering from heat prostration. Which can kill you i believe, although im no expert on it.
Lastly you have got to be kidding me if you think Sugar Ray Robinson, may of lost to Iran Barkley. You say Sugar Ray Robinson was no defensive master. No he wasn't but he still had great reflexes, where as Iran Barkley stood straight up and would just eat punches all night long.
Iran Barkley defeated Tommy Hearns because Tommy Hearns had a suspect chin, and suspect stamina. It was just a bad style match up for Tommy Hearns, who was the better fighter by far. But Iran Barkley could take his punches, and had the power to turn Tommy Hearns lights out.
But other than that what did Iran Barkley do ? he couldn't beat the smaller Roberto Duran, he couldn't beat Robbie Simms in an all out war, he couldn't beat Sumbu Kalmabay, who had good upper bodyment and a good jab. All of which Sugar Ray Robinson done better than Sumbu Kalambay.
He couldn't beat Nigel Benn, and he was embarrassed by James Toney. His career is based off two wins over Tommy Hearns. Now im not saying he was a bad fighter, because he certainly wasn't. But he was pretty lucky to get where he was, because he only had an average skill set. And his power although good was also nothing special either.
I'm not having a go at Ray Robinson by any means.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
the hook KO of Fulmer was magnificent, even scary, but one punch can't define a career.
I remember reading that Ray was alleged to be in his prime when moving to Middleweight.
He had a very long career and it was much later he truely started to take beatings.
From the footage I've seen of Robinson (admitedly at MW he seemed to be a fighter that was reliant on moving left, when forced right he seemed to get hit a lot, to me this suggests a weakness that could be identified and exploited by many fighters.
I won't argue that Marvin was on the slide. he hadn't looked inspiring in the Duran fight and he took a lot in the Mugabi fight, man the Hearns fight must've took its toll too!
However, i still would've picked him to beat 80% of challengers!
I know that Leonard has always claimed to have weighed 160 for that fight as he weighed in with a tracksuit pants in which he claimed to have held weights in the pockets, that is hearsay, perhaps sensationalism, but it looked to me like Lalonde enjoyed a considerable size advantage. Leonard dominated if me memory served me right???
Heat prostation is essentially severe dehydration and heatstroke.
maxim was subject to the same conditions that Robinson was. The problem was that Robinson was past prime and not as well conditioned as he once had.
I'd rate Barkley highwer than you I think. I always attributed the Tommy wins to a "stylistic luxury," but at the same time I wouldn't say thats all he had.
With the size advantage and his mentality I'll bet he could work his way into a good fight there.
I mean if Turpin did ???
This is basically replying to a number of posts on the subject rather than this one particularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
On comparing SRL & Hearns to SRR, I can see them as comparable, but SRR was greater.
SRL managed 40 fights in his career, whilst SRR didn't lose his 1st fight till his 41st fight against Jake LaMotta, a guaranteed HoFer, similar in context to SRL losing to Duran by fighting his fight. Both obviously won the rematches by adapting & by being better technical fighters.
At welterweight, SRR beat some of the all-time greats at the weight like LaMotta, Zivic, Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, as did SRL & Hearns, however, SRR fought 100 fights at the weight & was only bested that once by LaMotta.
You've also mentioned the Turpin fight, but he fought that having fought just 9 days previously in Italy. Can you say with certainty that SRL & Hearns would not have lost under similar circumstances. The fact he lost so little in his prime (5 times in the first 20 years of his career) despite fighting so regularly is a testament to his greatness. If we give their careers even 75% the longevity they were beaten by a similar level of fighter despite having considerably greater preparation time.
& whilst they were KO'd by Camacho & Barkley, the only KO loss of SRR's career was at LHW to Joey Maxim when he retired from heat exhaustion in a fight he was winning.
I'm not trying to underplay SRL & Hearns, I have SRL comfortably in my all-time Top 10, maybe at 5, whilst Hearns is definitely Top 20.
I just think SRR WAS greater, & even Leonard acknowledged that. I'll try dig up a link to the quote, but I believe he said 'They always tried to compare me to Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there is no comparisom.'
There are many strong points in your arguement Jaz and I liek how you put it together, but essentially my doubts are summarised in two points.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
The first is the era. Fighters a were a lot less articulate in terms of boxing skill and conditioing was primitive and ineffectual.
I would expect SRL and Tommy to scythe through most of SRR's competition, with the exception of Gavilan, La Motta, HurricaneHank and perhaps Basilio/Fulmer. Fighting at the time was just that and SRR's concept of boxing was radical and new. Fighters didn't know how to deal with it. SRL and Tommy wer by far more equiped to deal with SRR's skill.
The second is the lack of evidence. I can't put blind faith in any fighter, particularly in an era notorious for fixed fights and jobbers.
Remeber Mike Tyson stated after he fought Holmes that he wouldn't have stood a chance against a Prime Larry. Few rate larry above Tyson, so SRL like many writers and fans may have been nostalgic.