I have never seen a corner that disengaged, delirious and nonfunctional at this level in 40 years of following the sport. I'm sure their are others if I thought about it but Berto should shit can the entire lot imo.
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I have never seen a corner that disengaged, delirious and nonfunctional at this level in 40 years of following the sport. I'm sure their are others if I thought about it but Berto should shit can the entire lot imo.
I agree. I was actually quite disgusted. A fight must be emotional enough as it is without his brother shouting shit at him for 12 rounds... And his trainer was just pathetic really..!
Agreed. I wanted to kill his brother and next time he should just bring a deaf mute in as a trainer.
They seemed clueless, alright.
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Originally Posted by IamInuit
Agreed, although Felix Trinidad's corner (particularly his dad) during his fight with Winky Wright fight should merit an "Honorable Mention", at least. Papa Trinidad seemed clueless, and offered no alternate plans for Tito to follow.
Yup no plan B. Shame as Tito was a good boxer earlier in his career which he rarely gets credit for. The moment his bone crushing power was discovered they abandoned boxing and began the plodding. I was a huge Tito fan, hell still am. Never liked the father son teams. Jack Mosley is another father who had no business in a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Agreed, although Felix Trinidad's corner (particularly his dad) during his fight with Winky Wright fight should merit an "Honorable Mention", at least. Papa Trinidad seemed clueless, and offered no alternate plans for Tito to follow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup no plan B. Shame as Tito was a good boxer earlier in his career which he rarely gets credit for. The moment his bone crushing power was discovered they abandoned boxing and began the plodding. I was a huge Tito fan, hell still am. Never liked the father son teams. Jack Mosley is another father who had no business in a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Agreed, although Felix Trinidad's corner (particularly his dad) during his fight with Winky Wright fight should merit an "Honorable Mention", at least. Papa Trinidad seemed clueless, and offered no alternate plans for Tito to follow.
Uncle-nephew combos sometimes don't do so well, either. Cotto had his uncle in there for awhile, until they had a falling out. Then Cotto inexplicably hired Joe Santiago (?!?!?) as his trainer, until he came to his senses (and lost to Pac), and hired Emanuel Stewart. Best thing he could've done.
Its been that way for awhile yeh. When it gets thick it seems to devolve into a cross between a speech by Tony Robbins and quotes the gathered from Rocky, Rocky 5 I'd imagine.
Berto gets that confused face and looks to have no clue.
Less is best. He needs to change things and clean house if its going to help him improve.
"Be an Assassin Andre ! Be an assassin !" ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Berto's corner would've been better off not being there. All he really needed was a cutman, just in case, and someone to give him a drink. His brother was just ridiculous! If I was the trainer I would've put him in his place or done something incredibly embarrassing with the camera right there so he would get the message.
It was absolutely ridiculous for a professional fighter, have a corner where 3 people are talking to him at the same time.
The role of the trainer in boxing today is, really, secondary. In the old days, the trainer taught the fighter to fight, developed and taught the game plan for the fight, conditioned the fighter, made sure he made weight, took care of his mental issues, made sure his ex-wife didn't get in the way, and got tickets to the fight for extended family members.
Now, you have cardio coaches and strength training coaches and sports psychologists and so on and so on. What you end up with is guys that can't fight, need advice between rounds, and don't have anybody to give it to them. When you have 300 people telling you what to do in the run-up to a fight, why not in the corner, too?
That’s a very salient point right their. There is really only a hand full of good trainers left that are on the big stage. The majority of the great trainers are quite literally in the gyms where all these guys learned their craft. No more Blackburn, Arcel or Dundee. No Clancy, Damato or Eddie Futch. Theirs but a smattering of real trainers at the top level left. Which is not only odd and disturbing but worrisome.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Speakin of which, I remember Nocontest mentioning that Berto's trainer does sound like Bill Clinton. And he was right. Did anyone else thought this too?;D
I have a question. Was the trainer even watching the fight or was he watching the clock? That corner was the very definition of incompetence. Guys fighting a south paw and not a peep about direction.
"I just need to show up" is not a strategy.
Also noticed he would stop talking at times when brother father started in, rather then ruffle feathers and take charge of the corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Yea i couldn't tell what the hell was going on in his corner. With his brother, and his trainer both talking it was hard for me to tell what they wanted him to do.
[QUOTE=IamInuit;961538]I have a question. Was the trainer even watching the fight or was he watching the clock? That corner was the very definition of incompetence. Guys fighting a south paw and not a peep about direction.
I was surprised this hasn't been mentioned more. If you see the fight again, watch how often Ortiz establishes outside foot position and how often his right hand is outside Berto's left. He steps in, no jab, picks his lead foot up and over Berto's front foot and then rips a lead left to the chest followed by a right hook. Berto gets so tired of getting cut off he backs in to the middle rope, which is better than getting cut off in the corner.
Ortiz fought a classic southpaw's fight and Berto's corner had no answers.
Tito was never a pure boxer even early. People just didn't realize how lead leg heavy he was until later on in his career. If you made Trinidad have to pick up his feet and reset himself then he literally couldn't punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitYup no plan B. Shame as Tito was a good boxer earlier in his career which he rarely gets credit for. The moment his bone crushing power was discovered they abandoned boxing and began the plodding. I was a huge Tito fan, hell still am. Never liked the father son teams. Jack Mosley is another father who had no business in a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Agreed, although Felix Trinidad's corner (particularly his dad) during his fight with Winky Wright fight should merit an "Honorable Mention", at least. Papa Trinidad seemed clueless, and offered no alternate plans for Tito to follow.
As for Berto, I honestly never liked his trainer. This kid has a tremendous athletic potential, and yet he gets hit all the time, he has no defense. He doesn't feint or change it up at all. I thought he had that ability because he showed some signs of defense in his career before, but it's getting worse and worse, and I hope this is a wake up call, he needs to change his trainer first, and then his whole structure second.
[QUOTE=Gocougars3;961552]Berto should have used that oppertunity to cut against the grain like Roy jones used to. Instead of trying to fight hard for outside position you can't cut back and land your lead hand, and once they trigger in on that hand then go back around to having the advantage of your lead foot outside theirs and land a big right hand. One big problem is that Berto fought like an amateur and ORtiz fought like a pro. Berto was trying to flail speed from the outside with no organizational skills, while Ortiz was trying to actually keep his composure and move with intent and determination.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
IMO Berto's bad habits have finally come back to bite him in the ass, same thing with Lopez, Berto was happy fighting B level fighters and calling out the big names like Mayweather, Mosley, Pacquiao, and Cotto, yet would fight guys like Quintana, Freddy Hernandez, and Juan Urango (who would have been a good win at 140 and if he won like Alexander did), Berto IMO was never that good and too flawed for the big stage, Ortiz knocks him cold in a rematch
As if he had a corner before? Betro lost this fight because he got beat the shit out of by Ortiz. Corner or no corner he still gets ass beat.
The whole idea about "how to fight a southpaw"- that being your left foot outside his right foot, throw the hook and straight right has been invented by people that don't and have never fought. When you are boxing, the idea is to get the inside punching position. By doing the above you surrender it. You put your lead hand- about 80% of your offense- outside his shoulder, where it can't land. You beat a southpaw by going to his left hand, making him throw it, then countering with left hooks or right uppercuts.
With Ortiz, you want him to establish that position- his right foot outside your left foot- because his left hand is weak, and because, and Berto hit him with this, once you go to his left he will flat turn around and follow you. He walks into the right hand. He got nailed doing this and went down, in the 6th, and Berto narrowly missed the same punch at least three more times. He was that close to winning.
They should have been telling Berto to slide right (not bail out like he often did) and hook of Ortiz's left, or make him turn and fire his right. Ortiz fought hard and clearly won, but he was never more than a punch away from it going the other way. Good drama.
Berto didn't listen to his corner. Had he been listening he would have stopped looking for a knockout shot and boxed more, just like they were telling him to do, and got hit less. My guess is that Berto's mistake is he thinks all he has to do is load up and connect and the fight is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
I find this a rampant problem in the sport right now. Freddie Roach, Gabriel Sarmentio and Manny Stewart have calm corners and impart useful technical advice. But after that all you hear is "box him" or "throw more punches" type of advice delivered in a nervous pleading manner. Or you get th Berto everybody talk and nobody listen approach.
It's just awful.
You only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Honestly all I heard from the trainer was "Just box. Its that simple." When it was far from simple, Berto needed to stay off those fuckin ropes, stop loading up on one shot, go to the body, punch between Ortiz's punches, and set up a knockout, as he was way behind on the cards.
If nothing else, he needed to be told to stay off the ropes and stop loading up on one big shot.
You really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Berto's corner could do nothing. He maxed out where he could go in the sport. Berto is a flat footed fighter who relies on athleticism. End of story.
Well.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
The corner were all over the place. You don't need 4 voices in your ear between rounds when you are getting pummelled as you are probably hearing about 20 already. Berto's head must have been all over the place. And then he had to go back out there and have Ortiz move his head all over the place some more. It's a shame Berto has no head movement of his own to avoid all that.
I remember Devon Alexander's corner vs Bradley was pretty much the same. To much emotion and no where near enough advice. I remember thinking after the fight that they only cater to Devon's apparent immaturity as a fighter.
The whole idea about "how to fight a southpaw"- that being your left foot outside his right foot, throw the hook and straight right has been invented by people that don't and have never fought. When you are boxing, the idea is to get the inside punching position. By doing the above you surrender it. You put your lead hand- about 80% of your offense- outside his shoulder, where it can't land. You beat a southpaw by going to his left hand, making him throw it, then countering with left hooks or right uppercuts.
With Ortiz, you want him to establish that position- his right foot outside your left foot- because his left hand is weak, and because, and Berto hit him with this, once you go to his left he will flat turn around and follow you. He walks into the right hand. He got nailed doing this and went down, in the 6th, and Berto narrowly missed the same punch at least three more times. He was that close to winning.
They should have been telling Berto to slide right (not bail out like he often did) and hook of Ortiz's left, or make him turn and fire his right. Ortiz fought hard and clearly won, but he was never more than a punch away from it going the other way.
I didn't say you couldn't fight from there, I said the corner had no answers for the classic southpaw style. If you saw the fight you can't deny that was Ortiz's game plan and it worked. I agree there are counters to this strategy and the two mentioned can work but if you don't work on moving and pivoting right or you like to lead with your jab, problems arise. I see these issues every day as I work with a southpaw and he faces orthodox fighters that use this strategy in reverse. It can be frustrating to face as sometimes it limits your output.
Deja Vu :-\
Good points though.
It's funny... Berto was doing more with his left hand (can't remember what exactly?) in round 6 and 7 and in fact he was stopping Ortiz using his right and so he was able to drive Ortiz backwards which made Ortiz fight negatively all of a sudden. Apparently Ortiz is only any good while coming forward.
After that though, Berto's tactics went to pot and just seemed content on driving into Ortiz I guess to hold ring center instead of utilizing the arsenal that was making that particular dynamic happen.
When ever Ortiz beat him to the 'drive' Berto (as Spicoli had mentioned) either reported to setting traps (or waited for Ortiz to 'over reach with left' as GNSO would put it) or just went back to the ropes like a complete looser!
Wired fight really :-\ Fucking exciting though! ;D
Did you miss Tyson's corner when he fought Douglas? They didn't even have ice to stop the swelling, they just had a fucking water balloon.
I have yet to watch the fight(Ortiz-Berto), but I've heard it was exciting, and I was not surprised by the result at all.
See I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyWell.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
Look... it's like this. Berto obviously did not have all of his senses in tack during the fight. Most probably due to fact he was getting hit in the head repeatedly very hard starting from the first round.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiSee I don't think that's technical or useful advice anymore than "let your hands go" is. Especially when you have a fighter with cement shoes like Berto has.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyWell.. What I heard was his corner, was pleading with him to box. When he boxed and kept Ortiz at a distance with his jab, he did well and was able to sit down when he threw his right.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiYou really think we're not getting the good rounds, just the bad? Really? I grant your point about seeing only fragments, but I see no reason to believe they aren't representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou only get to hear partially what the corner is doing. Possibly the cameras listen in on a corner 4 times in the fight and a lot of the time it is not a complete audio. So how the hell can anyone make a judgment on what the corner is doing, when they are not there to know the complete situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
I'm not saying his corner wasn't shit as far as corners go. I'm just saying people are making judgments about his corner without "totally" knowing what was going on. You say you what heard was pretty useless. I'm saying, what I saw and I heard wasn't at all like people put it in this thread. I heard his corner specifically telling him to box. i.e. stay on the outside and use your jab. His corner may or may not have communicated that concept to Berto effectively in the context of his fight plan. I have no way of knowing that because I wasn't there and I'm not Berto. I can only assume they had a plan and trained for the fight following a specific plan with possibly some alternatives. What I saw was, when Berto did box, he was keeping Ortiz on the outside and he was very effective. When Berto allowed Ortiz on the inside he was getting his ass kicked most of the time. It's was not a complected fight to follow because neither fighter made very many adjustments. Berto just didn't seem to be able follow instructions. I can't tell you if it was or wasn't the corners fault.
I also found it amazing that they allowed him to keeping spouting off inbetween rounds. I'd bet that something was said after that fight for sure, he was annoying the hell out of me, so must have annoyed Bertos trainer for sure.
If I remember rightly, Eddie Chambers had a similar corner when he fought which ever Klit it was. Shouting and balling at him, all of them, terrible.
His corner could not have possibly been effective between rounds- they were obviously ineffective in their preparation for the fight, so why would things change? How could Berto move and stay away when his feet were consistently 3 feet apart? Nobody ever told him- in the gym, so why bother when the habit is ingrained?- that that ensures that a guy looking to rush you will 100% certainly get on top of you while you try to get your feet to where movement is possible. Why tell him to use his jab? The other guy is a right handed fighter- his whole game is based off the work he does with his right hand- and Berto insists on dropping his jab ever time he throws it. (Another thing that should have been addressed before a guy is a "world champ")
He wasn't mentally, physically, or strategically prepared for the fight. So how can the same guys that did nothing beforehand be expected to suddenly become gurus in the corner?
Berto should get with Roach, he'd be an awesome black pacman!