Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I got Pavlik coming in at number 15 with Taylor dropping out of the top 15.
How can Pavlik only come in at number 15? When he beat a guy who was on 90% of P4P lists? When he beat a guy who has wins over Hopkins(and he won the second fight decisively) and he had a close fight with Winky which could have gone either way? So B Hop,who most have top 3,struggled twice with JT,the the best version of JT shows up v Pavlik,Kelly KTFO him out? I'm not understanding the thinking bro.
This is the mistaken premise that's popping up all over this thread (and I haven't read through the rest of it yet, so maybe someone's made my point already). Taylor was
not on 90% of P4P lists. He was missing entirely from lots of (if not most) P4P lists. He wasn't on the Ring's list, which is the biggest list of them all. Tons of posters on this very website (no doubt many of the same ones who think Pavlik should be the #5 P4P fighter all of a sudden) have been saying for quite a while that Taylor is not a P4P fighter.
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
Also, I totally disagree with all this "best version of Taylor" talk. I agree that the "most exciting version" of Taylor showed up, but this was also the least careful version of Taylor, and that's exactly why he got KO'd. He came in there to excite the fans, so he got in there and engaged--and got caught. When he was boxing, he was winning rounds (and those were the most boring parts of the fight). And if backing straight up against a long, hard, puncher is "Taylor at his best," then that's just more proof that he wasn't a P4P great to begin with.
Shza. You still think Calzaghe needs to beat Taylor to secure his legacy? ;D
Just messin man. Good constructive post. Lots to pick at though but generally, i see your point ;)
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I got Pavlik coming in at number 15 with Taylor dropping out of the top 15.
How can Pavlik only come in at number 15? When he beat a guy who was on 90% of P4P lists? When he beat a guy who has wins over Hopkins(and he won the second fight decisively) and he had a close fight with Winky which could have gone either way? So B Hop,who most have top 3,struggled twice with JT,the the best version of JT shows up v Pavlik,Kelly KTFO him out? I'm not understanding the thinking bro.
This is the mistaken premise that's popping up all over this thread (and I haven't read through the rest of it yet, so maybe someone's made my point already). Taylor was
not on 90% of P4P lists. He was missing entirely from lots of (if not most) P4P lists. He wasn't on the Ring's list, which is the biggest list of them all. Tons of posters on this very website (no doubt many of the same ones who think Pavlik should be the #5 P4P fighter all of a sudden) have been saying for quite a while that Taylor is not a P4P fighter.
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
Also, I totally disagree with all this "best version of Taylor" talk. I agree that the "most exciting version" of Taylor showed up, but this was also the least careful version of Taylor, and that's exactly why he got KO'd. He came in there to excite the fans, so he got in there and engaged--and got caught. When he was boxing, he was winning rounds (and those were the most boring parts of the fight). And if backing straight up against a long, hard, puncher is "Taylor at his best," then that's just more proof that he wasn't a P4P great to begin with.
:coolclick: man I thought that was a well thought out post. Although I would personally have had BHop further behind going into the 7th round than Pavlik was in both fights, especially the first 6-1 on my card I do get exactly where you are coming from.
At the end of the day Pavlik is aknockout fighter, he wins his fights by KO, Winky and Hopkins are wily old boxers and win their fights through superior boxing ability, counterpunching and defense. Difficult to compare like for like.
You could argue Floyd's handling of the much bigger De La Hoya was a better boxing performance as was Ivan Calderon win over the nuch bigger Hugo Cazares.
Still Pavlik looked tremendous, the kid has got some balls to get through that second round and is as humble as they come. I can't think of a fighter who has excited me like him for some time. He's not yet top 10 material, simply because he hasn't done enough yet. Yes he beat Taylor and by KO but more than 70% of people on here think Hopkins and Winky beat Taylor as well and about 40% will say that Spinks did.
Pavlik finally closed the show on Taylors reign by taking it once and for all out of the judges hands but he almost came withing a gnat's whiskers of getting KTFO himself and it really was a fight that could have gone either way.
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
F the judges!!! He was not gettting dominated, the fight was pretty damn well even including the Knock Down, and Kelly was setting the tempo and Breaking Taylor down along with outjabbing him...
I'm not going on the judges' cards. I thought the 3rd round was the only round Pavlik clearly won. But I gave him the 1st as well. Taylor clearly won 2 (10-8) and 5. 4 and 6 were close, but I thought Taylor edged them both.
well which one is it. was he clearly winning the fight, but were the rounds so close that YOU gave him lead in the fight?
Re: where will Pavlik be in the pound for pound list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Deuce
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
As far as comparing Pavlik's performance against Taylors vs. B-Hop's and Winky's, yes, Pavlik was the only one to KO Taylor. But he was also the only one who was *clearly* losing the fight on points at the time it ended (most think Hop won the first fight, and most think Winky beat Taylor), and the only one who got put on the mat. I'm not saying that should outweigh his KO victory, but getting dominated on points is not an attribute of most P4P fighters. Pavlik's got a great punch, and is an excellent finisher. That counts for a lot. But he's technically really rough, which for me puts him out of the P4P until he actually beats a top P4P fighter. Compare him to Pacquiao--another hard-punching and technically flawed fighter. If Pacquiao hadn't beaten (or drawn) with a series of P4P fighters, I doubt anyone would have him in the top 5; because until you get a fairly one-dimensional puncher (with shite defense) in with top talent, you can't really tell how far the power's going to take him. If Pavlik were to beat Winky, or move up and beat Calzaghe or B-Hop, I'd happily put him in the top 10.
F the judges!!! He was not gettting dominated, the fight was pretty damn well even including the Knock Down, and Kelly was setting the tempo and Breaking Taylor down along with outjabbing him...
I'm not going on the judges' cards. I thought the 3rd round was the only round Pavlik clearly won. But I gave him the 1st as well. Taylor clearly won 2 (10-8) and 5. 4 and 6 were close, but I thought Taylor edged them both.
well which one is it. was he clearly winning the fight, but were the rounds so close that YOU gave him lead in the fight?
CC,Deuce,there are so many holes in your post SHZA,that theres no way I can agree. All I'll do is post links to just some P4P lists prior to the Pavlik fight:
http://boxing.about.com/cs/rankingsc.../top_fifty.htm
http://www.sportinglife.com/boxing/n...al_212613.html
http://www.boxingtalk.com/pag/pound4pound.php
I don't care who else they have,thats not the point. The point is,prior to the Pavlik fight,JT was P4P on alot of lists.
And as for a fighter being technically rough,you said Manny drew with a P4P guy(JMM was not on most P4P lists at the time,in fact not many knew of him) and for a "technically rough" fighter,he sure is dam high.Morales wasn't on P4P lists or was at least low the second time they fought(just like JT).MAB isn't on alot of P4P lists now.
And I don't think anyone can say Kelly was getting dominated on points apart from the judges and even if he was,(which he wasn't),I don't think it is that relevant seeing as he won via knockout?!.Also,B Hop clearly lost the second fight.Easily.
