Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gray Lion
No Bilbo...its called sacrifice and respect. And folks like you get to live under the blanket of protection that is provided by those you sneer at as "Patriotic". You get to do that in English and not German or Japanese, or Chinese, or Russian.
Right and what exactly does a principle sending some kids home for an afternoon as they were pouring cold water on some fellow classmates national celebrations have to do with those who died in Iraq and Afghanistan?
But I am grateful to the US for invading Iraq and other countries in the Middle East and signing up my little Island country to assist them. I feel safer now knowing that the Arabs hate us Brits as much as you yanks and that after we joined up with you Americans in your brave and gallant efforts they have so far only bombed us once in London.
Although to be fair your guys have killed more of us in friendly fire than the terrorists did on that day.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.
Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.
Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!
I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.
Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?
I think the best solution in a situation like this in a school setting is a uniform like KS suggested. I really think that is the best alternative. As it stands I don't believe that wearing a flag shirt should really be considered offensive. If the shirt had another students name on it with something provocative on it like "Debbie takes it up the pooper" then I don't think that is acceptable because Debbie is a student in the class and that is bullying and in a direct and very demeaning way. But I'm the type of person that would
see no issue with someone going to Buckingham palace wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the Queen getting her head cut off by a guillotine. That person would be an adult and I believe that they should be able to express themselves freely no matter how juvenile it is. Mind you, I really wouldn't go to the effort of doing that, but have no issues with anyone that did. I would probably draw the line at having naked people on a tshirt, that's probably not a healthy thing for young kids to see. And maybe a shirt emblazoned with foul language. But where do you draw the line? Maybe some kids are against modern capitalism and big business? Are we then going to ban all logos? Where do you draw the line. I find corporate branding far more offensive than a silly flag. Either let them wear what they want at all times and rise above any rivalry or else tie them down in uniforms. Now I'm thinking that for silly school kids the later option is probably preferable.
So of course you would have no problem letting a bunch of Arabs through the Heathrow Terminals wearing tshirts that said 'Down with the UK!', or 'Death to the infidels!'?
I must say it's interesting the lengths to which you will go to preserve tshirt wearing rights, the fundamental right to offend through clothing is clearly very important to you, a basic human right almost :-)
Haha ;D
I must start off by saying that I seldom ever wear any clothing that is in any way provocative, political nor antagonistic. I like wearing jeans and I would feel ridiculous wearing a union jack flag tshirt. I mean, how silly would that look on me? I just wouldn't go there. But in theory and if other people want to wear more provocative clothing then it shouldn't be a concern for me. I think to wear a shirt saying "Down with the UK" is a bit strong, but that's the persons choice. They shouldn't wear it in the UK though as they would probably get a kicking. Maybe something more specific like "Down with the Lib-Tory alliance" would be more palatable. But as an English man in a non uniformed public school then it shouldn't be an issue to go to school looking a bit of a sadcase in his union jack colours. People would probably laugh at him rather than get mortally offended. It's pointless to send the kid home though and any kid that wants to beat him up for it has issues themselves. There is a difference between being a provocative person with no fashion sense and being a violent thug. Not that you can't be both mind, but its the violent part that is really never cool.
Miles I just looked at the related posts below and saw that you created another thread arguing that teachers should have more power to control unruly students.
I'm still laughing now!
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
You know Bilbo..I was drafted and sent to Viet Nam. I did not believe in the war, did not want to go, had a wife and baby on the way. But I was sent by the people elected to run our government..I stepped up and did my duty. Some guys faked illness, some guys deserted and went to Canada. I never met a GI who wanted to be over there. I got a purple heart and returned home to a depressed economy and jobs tough to find. I think I know what your choice would have been, and today I meet guys who are ashamed that they chose to run and hide during those times. Well, you just go right on making fun of the real people who will man the guns, and be there when the chips are down. I suspect you are a young man who has not experienced going to a foreign country ruled by an oppressive government who would throw you in prison for uttering anything subversive. You still miss the point of this being a school in the United States and NOT Mexico. Now if you really want to offend Mexicans on that holiday..go into Mexico and wear a French flag on your shirt--but myself and my grand kids have the right to wear an American flag on our shirt in a U.S. public school....simple as that.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gray Lion
You know Bilbo..I was drafted and sent to Viet Nam. I did not believe in the war, did not want to go, had a wife and baby on the way. But I was sent by the people elected to run our government..I stepped up and did my duty. Some guys faked illness, some guys deserted and went to Canada. I never met a GI who wanted to be over there. I got a purple heart and returned home to a depressed economy and jobs tough to find. I think I know what your choice would have been, and today I meet guys who are ashamed that they chose to run and hide during those times. Well, you just go right on making fun of the real people who will man the guns, and be there when the chips are down. I suspect you are a young man who has not experienced going to a foreign country ruled by an oppressive government who would throw you in prison for uttering anything subversive. You still miss the point of this being a school in the United States and NOT Mexico. Now if you really want to offend Mexicans on that holiday..go into Mexico and wear a French flag on your shirt--but myself and my grand kids have the right to wear an American flag on our shirt in a U.S. public school....simple as that.
Sorry but what the fuck does serving in Nam have to do with this?
And why does objecting to the war but going make you better than someone who objects and faces imprisonment and exclusion to stand up for that conviction?
The whole Vietnam war was an illegal invasion. The Americans preempted it by faking an attack an The USS Maddox in the infamous Gulf Of Tonkin incident in 1964.
Your military leaders fabricated an attack on one of their own boats by the Vietnamese in order to allow President Johson the authority to push through the 'Gulf of Tonkin' resolution which allowed the US to 'assist' any country facing communist aggression.
It was a terrible war crime but gets completely brushed over because America won and are the world's only superpower.
We now know they also fabricated the WMD that Saddam was supposedly stockpiling and aiming at American cities in order to get the authority to invade their also.
They use the image of brave and patriotic serviceman dying to ensure peace and freedoms for others as a shield to deflect from any criticisms. If somebody opposes the war they are unpatriotic, spitting on the graves of American hero's.
Its' so wrong. The Americans are the most aggressive country in the world and have been proven time and time again to fabricate and even stage attacks in order to ignite the conflict they desire.
And you are right, I absolutely would have refused to fight in Vietnam and kill peasant's living in huts made of bamboo and long grass.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
Are you trying to prove otherwise?
(Booze, am I fuck against the ropes?)
It's like when a fighter protests an obvious stoppage ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
The highest court in the land says you can make political statements at school as long as it doesn't interfere with other students learning. If there were Mexican kids out there that felt targeted by these kid's shirts (because even those arguing against the principal admit that these douches were targeting kids) then the principal was well within his rights.
You guys take civil liberties and run with it, how the hell would you feel if your son went to this school and the principal was more worried about not stepping on a couple bigot's toes then he was making sure everyone is getting out of school what they actually went there for? Lyle I expected to have the type of reply he did but by typing Stinko De Mayo he pretty much made my point for me. If some Mexican called July 4th something like that he would be up in arms talking about how white people are modern day black slaves.
Great post, particularly the second part. I can see Lyle all worked up over it, with General Bulldog stopping by to accuse people of playing the race card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I never thought it would happen but Amat, Ono and Jazmerkin are those on this board whose opinions I respect the most these days.
I've been worrying just how much I've been agreeing with you & Hammer. At this rate it's only a matter of time before I'm drawn towards some BNP/Nambla coalition. :-X
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Miles I just looked at the related posts below and saw that you created another thread arguing that teachers should have more power to control unruly students.
I'm still laughing now!
If Miles wasn't on the ropes before, his argument is out for the count now :-\
* Since when are newbies allowed in here?? This Gray Lion's posts are a perfect illustration of why you should have to earn the right to post here.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nameless
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
I'm failing to see how anybody can't see that the kids in question were just being complete dicks. I mean Bilbo has explained it well, Jaz has, amat has, CFH has and i thought i had.
Being a dick is not illegal, nor is wearing a flag (i.e see the post where I did explain it more detailed). The point is not there, it was perhaps provocative but it was far from something totally disrespectful or offensive such as burning a mexican flag or stomping a Mexican icon. You cannot kick kids out of school for their opinion when these opinions are displayed peacefully.
Yes, there is nothing to suggest that the kids were being violent in expressing themselves. If they had been wearing the flag and walking about hitting the Mexicans then I would fully empathise with the Mexicans, but just based on wearing a few silly colours I struggle to see the big deal. I find it such a bizarre thing to get upset about. I couldn't imagine a situation from my school days where someone would get so worked up by a flag, but we did have to wear uniforms up until 6th form which is possibly the best option if this is how sensitive people are going to get. And they should all have the same haircuts too just like kids do here. If you are going to get so worked up by people expressing themselves (no matter how ignorantly) then how about going the other way and showing what its like for everyone to have no freedom. Uniform clothes and haircuts is the way to deal with this. Well done, KS on solving the issue for me! Hooray!
I don't think many are getting upset by it. Maybe in Mexican communities they are. But it seems to be the American public who are upset by the fact the kids we're asked to remove the clothing, and when they refused, they were asked to go home for the day.
Out of interest Miles, where do you draw the line? What item of clothing isn't accpetable?
I think the best solution in a situation like this in a school setting is a uniform like KS suggested. I really think that is the best alternative. As it stands I don't believe that wearing a flag shirt should really be considered offensive. If the shirt had another students name on it with something provocative on it like "Debbie takes it up the pooper" then I don't think that is acceptable because Debbie is a student in the class and that is bullying and in a direct and very demeaning way. But I'm the type of person that would
see no issue with someone going to Buckingham palace wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the Queen getting her head cut off by a guillotine. That person would be an adult and I believe that they should be able to express themselves freely no matter how juvenile it is. Mind you, I really wouldn't go to the effort of doing that, but have no issues with anyone that did. I would probably draw the line at having naked people on a tshirt, that's probably not a healthy thing for young kids to see. And maybe a shirt emblazoned with foul language. But where do you draw the line? Maybe some kids are against modern capitalism and big business? Are we then going to ban all logos? Where do you draw the line. I find corporate branding far more offensive than a silly flag. Either let them wear what they want at all times and rise above any rivalry or else tie them down in uniforms. Now I'm thinking that for silly school kids the later option is probably preferable.
So of course you would have no problem letting a bunch of Arabs through the Heathrow Terminals wearing tshirts that said 'Down with the UK!', or 'Death to the infidels!'?
I must say it's interesting the lengths to which you will go to preserve tshirt wearing rights, the fundamental right to offend through clothing is clearly very important to you, a basic human right almost :-)
Haha ;D
I must start off by saying that I seldom ever wear any clothing that is in any way provocative, political nor antagonistic. I like wearing jeans and I would feel ridiculous wearing a union jack flag tshirt. I mean, how silly would that look on me? I just wouldn't go there. But in theory and if other people want to wear more provocative clothing then it shouldn't be a concern for me. I think to wear a shirt saying "Down with the UK" is a bit strong, but that's the persons choice. They shouldn't wear it in the UK though as they would probably get a kicking. Maybe something more specific like "Down with the Lib-Tory alliance" would be more palatable. But as an English man in a non uniformed public school then it shouldn't be an issue to go to school looking a bit of a sadcase in his union jack colours. People would probably laugh at him rather than get mortally offended. It's pointless to send the kid home though and any kid that wants to beat him up for it has issues themselves. There is a difference between being a provocative person with no fashion sense and being a violent thug. Not that you can't be both mind, but its the violent part that is really never cool.
Miles I just looked at the related posts below and saw that you created another thread arguing that teachers should have more power to control unruly students.
I'm still laughing now!
I don't think it's that funny! :p
As a teacher I like kids who pay attention and are studious. They can have a laugh every now and then too as that's what kids do. But if the kid is starting to disrupt the class with rude behaviour and wanting to get phyical with others then I think the teacher should be able to discipline kids. I teach in an environment where corporal punishment is still the norm and it works. I don't use it myself as I have the luxury of smaller class sizes and the kids are fine. You compare that with the UK which is where kids rule the roost and there are far more problems. In that sense I believe a stronger teacher is more advantageous. I see no conflict in my position though. A Korean student should be free to wear the Korean flag in his classroom. After all, every Korean classroom has a Korean flag at the front of each classroom. Why would that bother me? I don't really see the point in it, but at the same time could not consider it offensive. But having said that, all schools have a uniform policy out here and like I've said earlier, that is probably the best thing for kids. I genuinely prefer that, America should follow suit.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Bilbo----tell us about the Irish...what are you and your courtymen doing to them in those 12 counties that want to break away? Tell us about your countries invasion of the Suez Canal when Nasser ruled Egypt. Your history is so full of oppression and aggression that it must be very noisy hearing the glass break around you. I bet you would have told Churchill to raise the white flag after Dunkirk. Would you allow students in your school to celebrate Hitlers birthday as a holiday? How did you justify holding India, China and other countries as "part of the emprie"? We kicked you and your kind out of this country...so like I said before...its OUR School in OUR country and we have the right to wear OUR flag...end of argument.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
In reply to Jaz, I don't really see the contradiction in my position. They are two different situations. I believe that out of control kids need to be stopped in their tracks, but I see nothing particularly problematic with a kid wearing a daft flag t shirt. Its a Mexican holiday on a day involving the French, it has nothing to do with America so I have no idea why the Mexicans would be getting so worked up about it. My main issue is with kids making actual threats of violence and trying to harm others, I struggle to see that in the wearing of an item of clothing.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gray Lion
Bilbo----tell us about the Irish...what are you and your courtymen doing to them in those 12 counties that want to break away? Tell us about your countries invasion of the Suez Canal when Nasser ruled Egypt. Your history is so full of oppression and aggression that it must be very noisy hearing the glass break around you. I bet you would have told Churchill to raise the white flag after Dunkirk. Would you allow students in your school to celebrate Hitlers birthday as a holiday? How did you justify holding India, China and other countries as "part of the emprie"? We kicked you and your kind out of this country...so like I said before...its OUR School in OUR country and we have the right to wear OUR flag...end of argument.
lol you really sound like a genuine lunatic!
I'm not at all proud of much of British history either. We had no business invading Iraq, I'm not convinced we have much claim the Falkland Islands either in all honesty. Winston Churchill certainly had his flaws, he was the first to gas the Kurds after all.
That's why I've never been a military man, to sign up to fight other people's dreams of conquest and destruction.
I still don't see why any of this is relevent to a principle sending some kids home for an afternoon, much less how celebrating Cinci Da Mayo day is the same as celebrating Hitler's birthday. You sound like an angry man with a politicial bug up his ass and who believes it's an outcry whenever the feelings of minority groups are considered.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
How does someone with 7 posts, who appears to be an alt, have access to this forum?
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
How does someone with 7 posts, who appears to be an alt, have access to this forum?
You're the mod, sort this.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
How does someone with 7 posts, who appears to be an alt, have access to this forum?
You're the mod, sort this.
I have no control over who can access what. I will pose the question to the powers that be.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CFH
How does someone with 7 posts, who appears to be an alt, have access to this forum?
You're the mod, sort this.
I have no control over who can access what. I will pose the question to the powers that be.
He definitely sounds familiar.
The way he rants about something totally unrelated to the discussion in hand is similar to Trainer Monkey, but TM certainly was no pro war purple heart vietnam vet so it's not him. He quotes a lot of history with authority like Kirkland Laing might do, but Laing has never struck me as the type to have an alt so I'm not sure, but he is somebody I'm certain of that.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Yeah, what's going on? We can't have newbies knowing how mental we are so soon. They need time to be nurtured into it on the main board.
Re: US students kicked of school campus for wearing US flag t-shirts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Yeah, what's going on? We can't have newbies knowing how mental we are so soon. They need time to be nurtured into it on the main board.
I don't want him banned from the board though. I mean in only his third ever post he's arguing an absurd point and telling us how he won a purple heart in 'Nam, I don't want to overhype him but I think he could turn out to be the next Trainer Monkey.
