James Toney v Randy Couture

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

---

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

---

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

---

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

---

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

---

80% of fights end up on the ground. Submissions is a different story. Usually punching on the ground is how they end up.

How do you kick someone in the face while you are rolling on top of each other attempting submissions anyway?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

---

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

---

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

---

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

---

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

---

80% of fights end up on the ground. Submissions is a different story. Usually punching on the ground is how they end up.

How do you kick someone in the face while you are rolling on top of each other attempting submissions anyway?

---

You mean UFC fights, right?

Because no-one on earth could possibly know 80% of fights end on the ground.

Think again its a number thing. You try that rollling around submission in a street fight in multiples, you WILL get kicked in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

---

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

---

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

---

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

---

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

---

80% of fights end up on the ground. Submissions is a different story. Usually punching on the ground is how they end up.

How do you kick someone in the face while you are rolling on top of each other attempting submissions anyway?

---

You mean UFC fights, right?

Because no-one on earth could possibly know 80% of fights end on the ground.

---

UFC was started to settle the argument of what martial art is the best. What was determined is that no single one is dominant, but some form of ground fighting is vital. Ground fighting is involved in nearly every fight.

I am repeating stats i've heard. You are right. Nobody knows the exact percentage. I will adjust my statement to "most fights will end up on the ground". Here's a quote, i pretty much agree with.

Quote:

---

watch tons of street fights (real aggression, not two guys fighting for the camera), and read articles on this subject, as I'm primarily into self-defense over combat sports as far as my training and instruction goes. From what I've seen, about 90% of real fights hit the ground from a clinch.

The reasons being:

A) The average joe fights squared up to their opponent and throws only hooks. Hooks force both guys to close distance, which eventually turns into a clinch at close range.

B) Its the natural reaction for an untrained person who gets hit in the head, to reach out and grab onto something to steady themselves. That "something" tends to be the person in front of them thats hitting them, and we once again have a clinch.

C) A lot of street fights start with at least one person being enraged, and people in an enraged state, or "condition black" tend to rush their opponent, either with a punch or a tackle. The punch, unless it hits the guy flush and drops him like a sack of potatos, is really going to end up as an entry to a clinch.

D) Alcohol is involved in about three quarters of street fights, so theres the natural unsteadiness that goes along with too much to drink, that will send people toppling into each other and onto the ground.

The top three senarios end up in a clinch, where several things happen, which generally leads to the fight on the ground.

A) Being as neither guy is trained in a clinch, it generally turns into a greco match with two guys locked up and pushing each other into walls, people, cars etc, which trying to hockey fight with close range punches. With neither guy knowing how to move in a clinch, people tend to trip themselves on curbs, chairs, or on each others feet.

B) Some guys naturally go for a sort of twisting takedown, which leads to a ground fight, as the guy getting thrown is naturally going to hang on for dear life.

The only times of seen street fights NOT go the ground are from one or two punch KO's, from a huge size disperity, where the little guy can't physically effect the larger mans mass by grabbing or tackling him, or with skill disperities, where someone just beats the living shit out of the person their fighting.

If anyone is looking to see real street fight footage, the best thing out there are shows like Cops, real tv, Max Ex, and the news. To a lesser extent, "reality shows" like Springer, Cheaters, etc while stupid, are packed with real life fighting between two people, and gives you an idea about how untrained people tend to conduct themselves in a fight.

---

...most fights end with 1 person on the ground ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

...most fights end with 1 person on the ground ;)

---

Have to...

Unless its Charlie Z in there......opponent before,during and after ko >> :lolhaha: :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

...most fights end with 1 person on the ground ;)

---

Not even most boxing matches end with 1 person on the ground. It's usually both people on the ground in a street fight. But the one on top is throwing punches, not going for submissions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hulk

Joe Rogan: "James, do you think you need to work on your ground game and come back ?"

JFAT: "No I dont' need to work on my ground game..."

Jesus fucking Christ...:rolleyes:

---

I have a question and a statement

#1 The question: Does James Toney plan on continuing to fight in MMA?

#2 The statement: Fuck Joe Rogan. I didn't like him on News Radio and I don't like him now....let me guess he was unshaven and wearing a black button up shirt that was 2 sizes too small when he asked James that question....gay lumberjack looking motherfucker

Nothing against MMA, I just hate Joe Rogan....smug little bastard

---

Joe Rogan is kind of a cocky douche. lol

Def has little man's syndrome.

I remember hearin from a guy that went to the same gym as Joe Rogan, that during Jiu Jitsu class, Rogan just stands in the corner looking tough, and then will only roll with white belts and new guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Oh like no one in MMA tries to sell a fight...he got $500K....the joke is on UFC for paying him that much

---

Toney got a guaranteed amount. He got nothing from the PPV proceeds, and I imagine he got nothing from sponsors. Couture asked for the fight. It wasn't like the fight was made by Dana White and Couture negotiated for his pay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LukeH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by generalbulldog

The boxer gets what they get because the market dictate what they get. It's call an open market system. You know we have that little thing called capitalism in the west. A top boxer like a Manny or Floyd are getting their market's worth.


I'll say this MMA is the equivalent of the NFL (popular mainly in 1 country but no one cares outside of AMerica), while boxing just like soccer has a larger and more worldwide following would be the equivalent of the EPL.

They didn't know who the fuck was Brock Lesnar in China, but they do know who Manny Pacquiao was when I visited there last year and talked to some of the locals.

Sure MMA is growing but mainly in America and probably Canada. As I've said for a martial art organization the Asians in Asia sure don't really give a shit about it or the Latinos in Latin America besides Brazilians.

BTW popular in America does not mean the world. If that was the case the NFL would be the no.1 sports league worldwide, but it's not.

---

Too much money is the problem with boxing. That's why guys fight once or twice a year, handpick opponents, fluffed records from promoters, waiting to make fights..... It's a sore topic for any real boxing fan, and the casual fans don't give a shit. The money in boxing comes from casual fans that don't follow boxing. That's where the big PPV numbers come from. Most of them couldn't name 10 current boxers.

You are confusing MMA with UFC. UFC is growing rapidly in Canada, US, Europe. MMA is a sport and you are just plain wrong to say it's not popular or growing in other parts of the world. Asian countries have long been into it. Just look at the top competetors in mma. They're from all over the world. You are way off base here..... UFC is American but MMA as a sport is worldwide.

---

Sure it's growing but to what extent? MMA fans have said that's it's the no.1 combat sport in the world and has surpassed boxing because of what the US and Canada? And that it's going to be on par with soccer soon? Based on what?

I've actually been to a few countries and MMA is not the no. 1 sport or combat sport in a few of those countries. Again being popular in AMerica and Canada does not mean the entire world or is growing so rapidly. That's like saying the NFL is more popular than soccer worldwide and is growing rapidly because it does well in America and has a Canadian Football league and is semi popular in Canada. It's an erroneous assumption. Like the Japan and MMA for example.

I'll go with my experience of actually having traveled outside of the US and traveling to some of these countries especially the pacific rim area instead of believing in Dana White and it's UFC/MMA fans.

We'll agree to disagree.

---

Sorry but your posts are ridiculous. What are you, a travelling pollster? Why are you travelling the world conducting surveys and who are you asking? Obviously MMA is growing rapidly in Asia and South America, and everywhere else as evidenced by the fact that fighters are now entering the Octagon from countries in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia etc.

It's growing rapidly. Sure a fight in the UFC between two Americans isn't going to be as big in Japan as a boxing fight between the top two Japanese boxers but that isn't really a fair comparison.

The reason MMA is growing so fast is because it is a more complete sport than boxing, it's real fighting, and more practically useful in real life. The baddest MMA star vs the baddest boxer in a real fight is at least 8 times out of 10 going to be won by the MMA star. That's appealing for the public, and also for young kids growing up who want to learn how to fight.

---

How is it more practical in real life? I cant think of one fight i've ever seen where people have ended up rolling around on top of each other attempting a submission, it would be hilarious, someone would just kick you in the face.

---

80% of fights end up on the ground. Submissions is a different story. Usually punching on the ground is how they end up.

How do you kick someone in the face while you are rolling on top of each other attempting submissions anyway?

---

You mean UFC fights, right?

Because no-one on earth could possibly know 80% of fights end on the ground.

---

UFC was started to settle the argument of what martial art is the best. What was determined is that no single one is dominant, but some form of ground fighting is vital. Ground fighting is involved in nearly every fight.

I am repeating stats i've heard. You are right. Nobody knows the exact percentage. I will adjust my statement to "most fights will end up on the ground". Here's a quote, i pretty much agree with.

Quote:

---

watch tons of street fights (real aggression, not two guys fighting for the camera), and read articles on this subject, as I'm primarily into self-defense over combat sports as far as my training and instruction goes. From what I've seen, about 90% of real fights hit the ground from a clinch.

The reasons being:

A) The average joe fights squared up to their opponent and throws only hooks. Hooks force both guys to close distance, which eventually turns into a clinch at close range.

B) Its the natural reaction for an untrained person who gets hit in the head, to reach out and grab onto something to steady themselves. That "something" tends to be the person in front of them thats hitting them, and we once again have a clinch.

C) A lot of street fights start with at least one person being enraged, and people in an enraged state, or "condition black" tend to rush their opponent, either with a punch or a tackle. The punch, unless it hits the guy flush and drops him like a sack of potatos, is really going to end up as an entry to a clinch.

D) Alcohol is involved in about three quarters of street fights, so theres the natural unsteadiness that goes along with too much to drink, that will send people toppling into each other and onto the ground.

The top three senarios end up in a clinch, where several things happen, which generally leads to the fight on the ground.

A) Being as neither guy is trained in a clinch, it generally turns into a greco match with two guys locked up and pushing each other into walls, people, cars etc, which trying to hockey fight with close range punches. With neither guy knowing how to move in a clinch, people tend to trip themselves on curbs, chairs, or on each others feet.

B) Some guys naturally go for a sort of twisting takedown, which leads to a ground fight, as the guy getting thrown is naturally going to hang on for dear life.

The only times of seen street fights NOT go the ground are from one or two punch KO's, from a huge size disperity, where the little guy can't physically effect the larger mans mass by grabbing or tackling him, or with skill disperities, where someone just beats the living shit out of the person their fighting.

If anyone is looking to see real street fight footage, the best thing out there are shows like Cops, real tv, Max Ex, and the news. To a lesser extent, "reality shows" like Springer, Cheaters, etc while stupid, are packed with real life fighting between two people, and gives you an idea about how untrained people tend to conduct themselves in a fight.

---

---

Can I see your source that 80% of all fights or the estimated number ends up on the ground?

It's a commonly quoted statistic from watching MMA.

As stated in the previous post. There's nothing scientific backing it. But google it and you'll find tons of arguments about it.

Not sure if mentioned yet but Kimbo Slice has signed up with Gary Shaw Promotions? Gonna be fighting at heavyweight. Obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koppas

Not sure if mentioned yet but Kimbo Slice has signed up with Gary Shaw Promotions? Gonna be fighting at heavyweight. Obviously.

---

I doubt that works out all that well...
#1 He'll have to shave or AT LEAST trim up the beard
#2 He didn't have the greatest chin in the world to begin with
#3 If he was all that great at boxing he would have turned pro long ago
#4 He chose MMA for a reason....ie he thought it would be the easy route to success
#5 He's almost 40 and he has bum knees

....I won't even go in to how a feather fisted little MMA dude knocked him out with a punch he threw as he was falling backwards.


As I said before with Kimbo...if you put him in vs Brian Minto a VERY SMALL heavyweight and now a cruiserweight...it's still extremely hard to see how Kimbo wins that fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by koppas

Not sure if mentioned yet but Kimbo Slice has signed up with Gary Shaw Promotions? Gonna be fighting at heavyweight. Obviously.

---

I doubt that works out all that well...
#1 He'll have to shave or AT LEAST trim up the beard
#2 He didn't have the greatest chin in the world to begin with
#3 If he was all that great at boxing he would have turned pro long ago
#4 He chose MMA for a reason....ie he thought it would be the easy route to success
#5 He's almost 40 and he has bum knees

....I won't even go in to how a feather fisted little MMA dude knocked him out with a punch he threw as he was falling backwards.


As I said before with Kimbo...if you put him in vs Brian Minto a VERY SMALL heavyweight and now a cruiserweight...it's still extremely hard to see how Kimbo wins that fight.

---

I am sure they will match him up the way boxing normally does. Give him easy fights till he's got 30 fights won.

Minto is a tough fight for anyone, Kimbo will be an exhibition type fighter. Give him guys who've been ko'd there last 9 out of 10 fights. He'll probably get half of Shannon Briggs opponents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luvfightgame

I am sure they will match him up the way boxing normally does. Give him easy fights till he's got 30 fights won.

Minto is a tough fight for anyone, Kimbo will be an exhibition type fighter. Give him guys who've been ko'd there last 9 out of 10 fights. He'll probably get half of Shannon Briggs opponents.

---

Even if they tried to make Kimbo the next Butterbean, the next Champion of the 4 rounders :rolleyes: ....I highly doubt you'd see Kimbo win 30 fights EVER much less in a row.

#1 He's damn near 40 now
#2 He's just not that talented