Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.
Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.
You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.
I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.
Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.
You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.
I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.
Now that you say that... I'm reminded of one of the more improbable and amazing knockouts I've seen. It was Foreman-Moorer, during his comeback..... when he KO'ed Moorer with that right hand. When I first saw it, I was like... WTF was that? I couldn't see how Moorer would be so devastated by a punch that Foreman didn't "wind up" for. It looked like Foreman had just dropped that big right arm on Moorer without much of an effort. That in itself, speaks volumes about Foreman's natural power.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Now that you say that... I'm reminded of one of the more improbable and amazing knockouts I've seen. It was Foreman-Moorer, during his comeback..... when he KO'ed Moorer with that right hand. When I first saw it, I was like... WTF was that? I couldn't see how Moorer would be so devastated by a punch that Foreman didn't "wind up" for. It looked like Foreman had just dropped that big right arm on Moorer without much of an effort. That in itself, speaks volumes about Foreman's natural power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZtZlTIglDU
Foreman on Tyson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Your post is so contradictory it is untrue Philosopher.
Not many fighters have stopped the blind and shot Frazier especially twice so George must have a bit of power.
You go on a rant about Norton who was KO'd 2 other huge punchers in Ernie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Then go on to say Norton freezes against punchers, so Foreman could hit a little bit.
I was not on about George being a great champion or boxer so you ramblings were irrelevant from then on or who he lost to or even his comeback, I was on about his punch power in his prime. Foreman’s power is raw it did not rely on speed like Tyson, timing like Rudduck, weights like Bruno, accumulation like Wlad it was natural.
I can see that you are a tough negotiator LOL.
Norton was brutally beat up by a non punching LHW and yes he froze against punchers! Do u have evidence to the contrary? Secondly i never said foreman could not hit! Please don't twist my words.
Thirdly i am still waiting for you to stop piggy backing other posters and put forth YOUR argument rather than 'Likeing' everyone who refute's mine! This whole thread is about you being offended LOL.
I for one am completely satisfied with my posts in this thread. Mister u must not confuse bluntness with rudeness. Text is a poor conveyor of tone and something laid out in a straightforward manner is not necessarily being rude...I am here to debate, i am not here to blow smoke up the rear ends of fighters you like, if u want to criticise fighters i tend to follow then start a thread and i will be happy to partake. I thankyou.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
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Listen here, you can't go around and attempt to say "I'm not hating on a fighter just by offering criticism" when you throw shit like that out first.
Yes i can.
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I take great offense to your posting. Not because you criticize 'Big' George Foreman an all-time great heavyweight but the reason you do so is to attempt to boost Wladimir Klitschko a fighter whom I have great respect for and a fighter who has great respect for those who came before him, so much so that Wladimir himself is unwilling to discuss his place among the greats until his career is over. You don't boost Wladimir's achievements in the sport by trying to minimize what other GREAT fighters have done. I don't just bandy the term great around with no thought. So my advice to you is show some respect
Well we can't be everyone's ideal...I appreciate you not being offended by this. LOL.
I suggest u lighten up....Have some fun!
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.
....don't attempt to reason with him, he obviously doesn't care and is going to see things the way he wants to whatever you say.
Why does every other Klitschko fan have to be delusional and I am left alone in offering a rational point of view without insulting past greats???
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.
....don't attempt to reason with him, he obviously doesn't care and is going to see things the way he wants to whatever you say.
Why does every other Klitschko fan have to be delusional and I am left alone in offering a rational point of view without insulting past greats???
Never thought I would type this but for once you are being the rational Klit fan compared to Philosopher, amazing. :)
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.
Well give then to me then. Why are u dodging the issue? U clearly stated 'THE' hardest puncher ever and not 'ONE' of the hardest ever too in your original retorts! Don't move the goal posts now! I would like YOUR opinion first and then the statistics links. Thanks.
If u think he hit harder than either KLIT then i pity u. As i said...So far 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.
Additionally…
Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs)
would be Wladimir Klitschko's
bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent
and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent
The easiest way to convince ppl like u of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.
U base your theory on Frazier, Moorer and Norton who between them have been about 35 times throughout there careers! Frazier is tiny, Norton was brutalised by a LHW and Moorer was dropped X6by Holyfield and X2 by CW Bert Cooper! The evidence does not support your claim's. Of course George was a huge puncher but not by the SHW standards' of the 90's and 00's.
Now what are these statistics u talk of? Insulting me or 'Likeing' other ppl's posts is not an argument or a reply! U are taking my bluntness and insistance totally wrong too...I'm just here to debate! Stop taking this so personal and labelling ppl irrational.
U are the irrational one with his head in the cloud's if anyone is!
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE PHILOSOPHER
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Philospher, why should I repeat what other posters have said just to please you. Listen all of us can't be wrong, statistics and evidence has been provided that Foreman was one of the hardest punchers ever and he hit harder than either Klit.
Well give then to me then. Why are u dodging the issue? U clearly stated 'THE' hardest puncher ever and not 'ONE' of the hardest ever too in your original retorts! Don't move the goal posts now! I would like YOUR opinion first and then the statistics links. Thanks.
If u think he hit harder than either KLIT then i pity u. As i said...So far 13 people survived fights with Foreman. But only 3 survived against Wlad.
Additionally…
Prime George Foreman (median weight 217 lbs)
would be Wladimir Klitschko's
bottom-10 LIGHTEST opponent
and Vitali Klitschko's bottom-3 LIGHTEST opponent
The easiest way to convince ppl like u of the superiority of Klitschko (compared to Foreman) is to mention that George Foreman has scored only 3 KOs in world championship fights whereas Wladimir Klitschko has scored approximately 5 times as many.
U base your theory on Frazier, Moorer and Norton who between them have been about 35 times throughout there careers! Frazier is tiny, Norton was brutalised by a LHW and Moorer was dropped X6by Holyfield and X2 by CW Bert Cooper! The evidence does not support your claim's. Of course George was a huge puncher but not by the SHW standards' of the 90's and 00's.
Now what are these statistics u talk of? Insulting me or 'Likeing' other ppl's posts is not an argument or a reply! U are taking my bluntness and insistance totally wrong too...I'm just here to debate! Stop taking this so personal and labelling ppl irrational.
U are the irrational one with his head in the cloud's if anyone is!
Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well. Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.
You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....
Are u his legal guardian or something?
Valuev was a big useless lump. A sideshow. I never stated size was the be all & end all in this argument. The klitschkos are exceptional in all aspect's and both hit harder than foreman.
Quote:
oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well.
In a p4p sense foreman is an ATG puncher but saying he hit's harder than the ELITE SHW'S of the past 2 decades is just incorrect. And bringing a Telletubbie into the debate just makes u look silly. Butterbean.....LOL. Oh and Valuev couldn't really punch. So again your suggestion that i am basing it all on size has just been refuted. Just because i say K2 are harder puncher's than Foreman doesn't mean i apply that logic to all 240lb + fighters! K2 are exceptional in all aspect's and they hit harder than george, clearly! (Especially WK!).
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Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.
Rocky is one of my favourite fighters ever. Shavers could indeed bang but he was basically a journeyman.
Quote:
You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are
I am being honest. Im off for my lunch now. Good day to u sir.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE PHILOSOPHER
Quote:
Philosopher by your view Nicolay Valuev should be the hardest puncher ever seeing how he's so big and all....
Are u his legal guardian or something?
Valuev was a big useless lump. A sideshow. I never stated size was the be all & end all in this argument. The klitschkos are exceptional in all aspect's and both hit harder than foreman.
Quote:
oooh or maybe Butterbean hits harder than Wlad & Vitali seeing how he's heavier as well.
In a p4p sense foreman is an ATG puncher but saying he hit's harder than the ELITE SHW'S of the past 2 decades is just incorrect. And bringing a Telletubbie into the debate just makes u look silly. Butterbean.....LOL. Oh and Valuev couldn't really punch. So again your suggestion that i am basing it all on size has just been refuted. Just because i say K2 are harder puncher's than Foreman doesn't mean i apply that logic to all 240lb + fighters! K2 are exceptional in all aspect's and they hit harder than george, clearly! (Especially WK!).
Quote:
Guys like Marciano & Shavers were tiny but they could bang....guess you've got no use for them though.
Rocky is one of my favourite fighters ever. Shavers could indeed bang but he was basically a journeyman.
Quote:
You can argue all you like but don't be intellectually dishonest the way you are
I am being honest. Im off for my lunch now. Good day to u sir.
My points (not that it matters to much to attempt and explain this to you) are that you bring weight into the equation like it's the end all be all of where punching power comes from....and I say it's not via my ridiculous example of Nicolay Valuev who is gigantic and punches like a baby kitten and Earnie Shavers who was tiny and could crack granite with his fists (that's a bit of hyperbole, I hope you understand what that is).
The allegations you make and the manner in which you try to get your points across are moronic. "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" .....but what? Why the fuck even bring it up? Why even attempt to compare them if you consider Heavyweight and Superheavyweight different??? What constitutes a Superheavyweight in your eyes? How do you know SPECIFICALLY that Wlad or Vitali hit harder than Foreman or vice versa? Do you have any facts to back up your claims? Or are you just basing it on what it looks like?
Have a nice lunch
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Are u incapable of grasping an argument? It's simple, when talking about NOTED HW punchers like WK and big george then POUNDAGE must factor in as PART of the equation, otherwise NOTED punchers like julian jackson are comparable to foreman or duran is comparable to frazier! Is it sinking in yet? It's common sense when comparing the power of 2 noted HW punchers to mention that prime george was 217 and WK 245! So sorry but 200lb shavers is not comparable to i.e Lewis IMO! Great P4P puncher, Undoubtable power but not on lewis's level! Now of course there are bigger men than foreman who don't hit as hard, and PRIME foreman in a P4P sense (Im HW terms!) is probably a slightly harder puncher than WK but when asking how does GF measure up with the NOTED big hitters of recent years like Tua, Tyson, K2, Lewis etc then i say they hit harder overall! What is so wrong with suggesting i.e WK hit's harder?? He clearly does as evidenced by the stats etc i put forth and the fact that GF struggled with Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese etc Foremans power had no impact in the 90's...which is suprising considering he focused on it massively in training! Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese would all have ben stopped with ease by WK. I never said it was the be all & end all as u like to imply!
U also say i de-mean GF and WK by daring to compare them and then go onto compare WK to Butterbean LOL with your 'Well Valuev/Butterbean must hit harder as they are bigger' comment! U don't even know u did it! Exposed yourself right there! LOL. All the evidence and common sense points to wlad hitting harder, Common opponents, Fight stats, How many men have survived them etc Just accept K2 are better (it's not disrespectful, boxing debate has been going on for decades) foreman himself admits it! Lets ask a fighter! Briggs fought an old foreman and an old VK and says VK is the superior fighter! Thats good enough for me too...
Stop romanticising these 70's HW's, by all means appreciate them but dont put them on a pedestal they don't deserve! Jimmy young arguably beat all of them yet casual fans don't even know who he is, and in truth when u see men like Cooper and Bugner giving ali/frazier nightmares then imaging what K2 and the elite SHW'S of the past couple of decades would do! Yeah u can cite wlad's losses but he beat far better men than the 3 he lost to..
Foreman dropped SMALL joe frazier multiple times and stopped chinny norton, so what! He still didn't KO frazier! Sanders brutalised wlad, put rahman down twice and arguably put VK down too! Do we ever hear his name mentioned in those circles? No. Why? Because everything to do with this era is overrated apparently and all that went before are demio-gods and anyone who dares to challenge that is labelled irrational!
I think the real problem here is the fact that i have destroyed u both in this thread, and u don't like it so to save face u have decided to pursue a personal vendetta in order to discredit me. LOL. This place is like some little clique with only one train of thought...
Go watch green wlad school chris byrd then go watch PRIME foreman get his as beat by 34-19 Jimmy 'A poor mans chris byrd' Young! My argument is tight. Your argument is just butthurt diatribe! Tua, Tyson, Lewis, K2 etc hit harder IMO! Holy's power is even comparable too! Hell even cooney and sanders have an argument here! If u think any of those men don't hit harder than GF then drop the attitude and say so.
U also say 'do i have any concrete evidence' well i think my argument that i put forth is better than your's! Of course it is all subjective and i could equally flip that with 'Do u have any facts to say george DEFINITELY hit harder?'... And another thing "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" ..... and?? What is wrong with debating a boxer in a boxing forum? It is simply my opinion u don't have to agree, i think i have made a good enough case, but no nothing is ever definitive unless we stick em all in a lab and test em like rats! U could apply your logic to any issue in boxing and never get CONCRETE evidence, thats what we are here for to debate and put forth arguments! Sense of persepective mate, get one! And get off the fence u fookin liberal democrat ...LOL.
Re: Wladimirs resume is excellent...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
THE PHILOSOPHER
Are u incapable of grasping an argument? It's simple, when talking about NOTED HW punchers like WK and big george then POUNDAGE must factor in as PART of the equation, otherwise NOTED punchers like julian jackson are comparable to foreman or duran is comparable to frazier! Is it sinking in yet? It's common sense when comparing the power of 2 noted HW punchers to mention that prime george was 217 and WK 245! So sorry but 200lb shavers is not comparable to i.e Lewis IMO! Great P4P puncher, Undoubtable power but not on lewis's level! Now of course there are bigger men than foreman who don't hit as hard, and PRIME foreman in a P4P sense (Im HW terms!) is probably a slightly harder puncher than WK but when asking how does GF measure up with the NOTED big hitters of recent years like Tua, Tyson, K2, Lewis etc then i say they hit harder overall! What is so wrong with suggesting i.e WK hit's harder?? He clearly does as evidenced by the stats etc i put forth and the fact that GF struggled with Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese etc Foremans power had no impact in the 90's...which is suprising considering he focused on it massively in training! Morrison, Schultz, Moorer, Briggs, Savarese would all have ben stopped with ease by WK. I never said it was the be all & end all as u like to imply!
U also say i de-mean GF and WK by daring to compare them and then go onto compare WK to Butterbean LOL with your 'Well Valuev/Butterbean must hit harder as they are bigger' comment! U don't even know u did it! Exposed yourself right there! LOL. All the evidence and common sense points to wlad hitting harder, Common opponents, Fight stats, How many men have survived them etc Just accept K2 are better (it's not disrespectful, boxing debate has been going on for decades) foreman himself admits it! Lets ask a fighter! Briggs fought an old foreman and an old VK and says VK is the superior fighter! Thats good enough for me too...
Stop romanticising these 70's HW's, by all means appreciate them but dont put them on a pedestal they don't deserve! Jimmy young arguably beat all of them yet casual fans don't even know who he is, and in truth when u see men like Cooper and Bugner giving ali/frazier nightmares then imaging what K2 and the elite SHW'S of the past couple of decades would do! Yeah u can cite wlad's losses but he beat far better men than the 3 he lost to..
Foreman dropped SMALL joe frazier multiple times and stopped chinny norton, so what! He still didn't KO frazier! Sanders brutalised wlad, put rahman down twice and arguably put VK down too! Do we ever hear his name mentioned in those circles? No. Why? Because everything to do with this era is overrated apparently and all that went before are demio-gods and anyone who dares to challenge that is labelled irrational!
I think the real problem here is the fact that i have destroyed u both in this thread, and u don't like it so to save face u have decided to pursue a personal vendetta in order to discredit me. LOL. This place is like some little clique with only one train of thought...
Go watch green wlad school chris byrd then go watch PRIME foreman get his as beat by 34-19 Jimmy 'A poor mans chris byrd' Young! My argument is tight. Your argument is just butthurt diatribe! Tua, Tyson, Lewis, K2 etc hit harder IMO! Holy's power is even comparable too! Hell even cooney and sanders have an argument here! If u think any of those men don't hit harder than GF then drop the attitude and say so.
U also say 'do i have any concrete evidence' well i think my argument that i put forth is better than your's! Of course it is all subjective and i could equally flip that with 'Do u have any facts to say george DEFINITELY hit harder?'... And another thing "George Foreman is an ATG puncher BUT" ..... and?? What is wrong with debating a boxer in a boxing forum? It is simply my opinion u don't have to agree, i think i have made a good enough case, but no nothing is ever definitive unless we stick em all in a lab and test em like rats! U could apply your logic to any issue in boxing and never get CONCRETE evidence, thats what we are here for to debate and put forth arguments! Sense of persepective mate, get one! And get off the fence u fookin liberal democrat ...LOL.
my good sir, a higher KO percentage need not mean that fighter A punched harder than fighter B. You see, timing and accuracy of the punches also factor largely in the equation.
