Is this the worst era in HW boxing history?

But you just did compare one era versus another with this thread. The title of the thread was is this the worst HW era of all time. And the answer is that it is among the best in terms of skill level, effectiveness and overall talent of the fighters.

It's 2014 now and the eras your prmoting were 40-50 years ago and beyond. How could it be otherwise??

But I have seen those old fights and you can see clearly that they were smaller. You can see clearly that they were not as athletic as todays fighters. You can see clearly that they were not skilled fighters.

Fuck me, George Foreman did not even know how to box! Muhammad Ali barely knew how to box properly either and Joe Frazier marched straight forward with only 1 punch in his arsenal!

These are the 3 BEST boxers of that era and they could barely BOX!

Where are the technical boxer-punchers of the 70's, the analogs of Lewis and Klits?

Where are the defensive masters like Byrd and Chambers?

Where are the all in one fighters like Haye and Holyfield and Tyson?

They are none. Because the sport was not evolved enough for them yet.

Further those old fighters did not hit each other as viciously as they do today. Today a HW can be knocked out with a well placed single hard shot.

In the 70's even the biggest/hardest puncher (Foreman) took 6 KD's to put down one of the smallest/chinniest fighters (Frazier) who still finished the fight on his feet.

As for your scaling up of Frazier to the size of a modern HW, think about it. If you packed Frazier with muscle like Peter he would swing more slowly, move more slowly and have a much lower workrate due to being 240 lbs! He would have a higher punch resistance and more power by virtue of crude mass too and body strength.

He would perform in my estimation EXACTLY AS SAM PETER PERFORMED!

But Frazier was not that guy. Frazier was as I described him, and the fact that a guy like that could be an Olympic champion and a HW champion is another testament to how bad the Golden era really was.

As for today, Not only is the modern HW era more proficient than the Golden Era, it's so far apart it isn't even CLOSE!

Samuel Peter would be a multiple time HW champion in the 70's with a major threat coming only from Foreman himself arguably and would dominate the 60's with no equal.

In that 20 year time span I would never have bet against Samuel Peter in any fight and would have bet almost all times on Peter to win by KO.

James Toney was a fat ass against PEter sure but so was Peter by that time, they were both unathletic at that stage so the comparison is tainted but let me say that Toney's style as a slick counter puncher and defensive fighter is not reliant on either size so much, or athleticism. As with Kirk Johnson, Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers etc, they were never in great shape. And Peter was never a difficult to hit opponent, same as Frazier, their head bob technique afforded them a little protection from limited boxers but not from good pros, Frazier was sucessful because he faced no hard punchers and Peter was becaue he had great chin and power.

So this type of opponent was great for Toney. And of course his layers of blubber provided massive punch protection too.

And no MrBig I'm not saying they weren't great, they were the best of their age and that is as great as you could get!

But that doesn't afford them superhuman status. You said it yourself, you can only judge them against the criteria of their own era. That criteria is different now.

And I've no doubt there was reasons behind Ali's struggles (although struggling against Fraizer and Norton 3 times each is hard to justify) but 2 things are obvious..

He was not a DOMINANT champion like Tyson, LEwis and the Klitschko's were. He was more like a Holyfield. A great boxer who would always be at the top but who could never hold on to a title for long.

And if you excuse Ali's struggles and losses then you have to be prepared to do the same for Klitschko too. The GASSING against Puritty, the HEADBUTT against Sanders, the HYPERGLYCAEMIA against Brewster (whatever the cause). Just as we know the issues with Holyfield too.

Who did Peters ever knock out that was worth a shit or top ten Max i not going look up the shit but i pretty sure none i feel his power is overrated he lost to fat mw in his prime as well with not much power. Admek could not make it in Lhw division lacks power at hw is top ten, Chambers no punch cw was a top ten. Bryde has the best wins of any opponent Wald ever fought and was established champ also a cw blown up really right. Only good guys that are 240 plus really were Lewis, Wald, Vitali, Bowe and Old George Foreman. Most the best fighters aren't giants right now besides the brothers i think any one from 70's up do fine in this era including Ali. I am not even fan of his Holyfeild is my favorite fighter but i am sure Ali could outbox a lot people of today how much footage have seen of him anyhow may i ask.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Who did Peters ever knock out that was worth a shit or top ten Max i not going look up the shit but i pretty sure none i feel his power is overrated he lost to fat mw in his prime as well with not much power. Admek could not make it in Lhw division lacks power at hw is top ten, Chambers no punch cw was a top ten. Bryde has the best wins of any opponent Wald ever fought and was established champ also a cw blown up really right. Only good guys that are 240 plus really were Lewis, Wald, Vitali, Bowe and Old George Foreman. Most the best fighters aren't giants right now besides the brothers i think any one from 70's up do fine in this era including Ali. I am not even fan of his Holyfeild is my favorite fighter but i am sure Ali could outbox a lot people of today how much footage have seen of him anyhow may i ask.

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The voice of reason.

Max does not understand reason.

Max deals in absolutes, therefore he it's either a sith lord or a member of the old darkside clan ;D

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Who did Peters ever knock out that was worth a shit or top ten Max i not going look up the shit but i pretty sure none i feel his power is overrated he lost to fat mw in his prime as well with not much power. Admek could not make it in Lhw division lacks power at hw is top ten, Chambers no punch cw was a top ten. Bryde has the best wins of any opponent Wald ever fought and was established champ also a cw blown up really right. Only good guys that are 240 plus really were Lewis, Wald, Vitali, Bowe and Old George Foreman. Most the best fighters aren't giants right now besides the brothers i think any one from 70's up do fine in this era including Ali. I am not even fan of his Holyfeild is my favorite fighter but i am sure Ali could outbox a lot people of today how much footage have seen of him anyhow may i ask.

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What you mean is that the names on Peter's record are unfamiliar to you. Maskaev was a HW champ and if I am not mistaken, beating another champ is a pretty bloody great achievement. Especially since Maskaev was a multiple champ and beat Rahman 2ce who beat Lewis. But Let's compare Peters complete list of opponents to Fraziers

A long list of the names on Fraziers record are obscure also. And a lot of the known names were not as good as say a humdrum opponent of Peters like Charles Shufford.

On close inspection you will find that half the opponents of Frazier are not even real HW's today. Frazier and Peter have similar fight experience in the 30+ fight range but all of Peters opponents are real HW's where as Frazier's real 200+ experience is only 14-4.

Today, we would call that a bum record and say he should go back to Cruiser. What's more those opponents of Frazier are actually worse because even amongst the real 200+ HWs he fought, their own records also consisted largely of what is today called CW, and so any opponent of Samuel's conversely, their records consist mainly of 200+ HW's as well (unless the opponents opponent stepped up from CW of course but the incidences are still much less), so the HW fight experience of Peter's opponents, let alone Peters himself is far greater than Frazier's.

So before you rubbish the opponents of Samuel Peter whom you admittedly rubbished without even analysing, strong conclusions can already be drawn about him from his record, even if you don't recognise famous names. And remember just because you know who a boxer was on Frazier's record that would not help him to survive! And look now to the KO streak and % of Peter. And also notice that the several losses Peter accumulated were end of career too post Klitschko when he started to get lazy and fat (apart from Klitschko losses themselves).

Frazier in fact seems to be afraid of hefty fighters because his experience above the weight of 215 lbs is only 1-2, 2 destoyings from Foreman and one victory against Busther MAthis, a very fat, unconditioned fighter who gassed out in the late rounds which he'd never been in before. Peter weighed 230+ lbs always! And Peter did NOT lose to a fat middleweight, he won both fights!

Tomasz Adamek is a featherfist at HW, he is also a very tough little boxer with great all round boxing skills. He has had some success because of his quality as a fighter and also struggles to compete at top level though because of his physical limitations, as would Ali, who is of similar proportions and quality. Adamek is strength trained to become a HW just like Holyfield.

Your quip about Adamek is complete BS. He was a light-weight champion, only losing 1 fight to Chad Dawson another top boxer. Then he was a CW champion. Then he was a HW contender as he muscled up. Overall Adamek was a 7 time world champion across 2 divisions but failed to capture one at HW because of his restrictions! That tells me he is a superb boxer but also underlines the power of the HW division! And remember what happened against Klitschko, he was like a school boy getting batted around.

Chambers and Byrd were both successful because they were escapologists but both also had difficulties against the better+larger opponents too. Byrd does have a great record too of names that you obviously recognise but the ease with which Wladimir found him and batted him around again testifies to the limits that Byrd could achieve. And remember the only opponent Byrd managed to conincingly KO of real toughness was Jimmy Thunder, a simple slugger.

So throw Haye and Holyfield in there too and you have basically exhausted the list of former CW's that have been successful at HW not just at this one time but over the course of the last decade and a half! That small list! Compared to the 50 odd that were so in the 60's and 70's at top level! Obviously it got harder and harder for them to compete which is why they invented CW in the first place. Only the very brave and determined ones step up to mix it with the big boys now!

Those 5 are the only good big guys are they. Those 5 are right at the top, I give you that but there are plenty of 240+ big guys who were still good. They were either HW champs or top contenders. By that standard the list encompasses a lengthy list.

Look at Vitali Klitschko's opponent list. Post Lewis and inclusive- they were virtually ALL 240+ lbs with the exception of Adamek who was still as hefty as ther bigger HW's of the 70's, and were unbeaten (or nearly unbeaten), past, present or future champs.

As for right now, Tyson Fury, Kubrat Pulev are over 240 definite and the rest of the top 10 in every belt are approaching. No fighter at all is below 220lbs atm, not even the smallest, Tomasz Adamek.

I've seen all Ali's important fights over the many years and sadly will never get that time back. I grew up with Mike Tyson mate. I never seen anything spectacular about Ali at all. Holmes was a much better version imo.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

I've seen all Ali's important fights over the many years and sadly will never get that time back. I grew up with Mike Tyson mate. I never seen anything spectacular about Ali at all. Holmes was a much better version imo.

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I seen him run away like a turkey avoiding conflict from anybody approaching his own size in the 60's and stealing fights from the outside with piss weak shots, the only time I seen him really bash anybody was when the opponent was smaller than him.

And then in the 70's I seen him get fucking smashed to bits and gifted left right and centre.

I would say that Ali was the luckiest boxer in history! Not the grestest.

Hey Max, STFU. People here think I'm you and that pisses me off :mad: your the worst type of boxing fan, you don't know shit and you are disrespectful to former fighters. I doubt you have ever stepped in the ring, you throw the word bum around and it makes me think you are all talk. Your arguments are pointless, it's all relative. Planes today are better, so are cars etc. But without a starting point and development through the years we don't get to where we are ;)

Put Wlad back in the old days born around the 40's and the guy probably doesn't live past his teens. Everything is relative so give it a rest son :mad:

hats off to max power, you might not agree with his posts but he certainly comes prepared to post.. Good to have different opinions on forums.. good work !

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Originally Posted by La Cucaracha

Hey Max, STFU. People here think I'm you and that pisses me off :mad: your the worst type of boxing fan, you don't know shit and you are disrespectful to former fighters. I doubt you have ever stepped in the ring, you throw the word bum around and it makes me think you are all talk. Your arguments are pointless, it's all relative. Planes today are better, so are cars etc. But without a starting point and development through the years we don't get to where we are ;)

Put Wlad back in the old days born around the 40's and the guy probably doesn't live past his teens. Everything is relative so give it a rest son :mad:

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Bum is a relative term man, if you'd prefer me to say "a professional fighter but one with record with a large proportion of losses" then imagine that's what I wrote instead of that 3 letter word.

I was never a pro boxer no but I was an ammy. To say that I know nothing of boxing though I would just claim I know enough to speak with confidence about it.

This is a forum, it IS all talk!

The arguments I present here are all very relevant to the thread and the arguments presented to me!

As for the rest of your story, I am not, and never have been in dispute! I'm not rubbishing on any former great. If you rubbish a modern fighter, I'll expose their predecessor. My position is..

Joe Louis was a great boxer.
Muhammad Ali was a great boxer
All the guys in between were great boxers too.

My only dispute is when it's put forward that they could rock up to the modern HW division and begin whacking guys around. That's CRAZY!

How are you been confused with me? Have you wrote something intelligent too? LOL

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Originally Posted by palmerq

hats off to max power, you might not agree with his posts but he certainly comes prepared to post.. Good to have different opinions on forums.. good work !

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Yeah, nobody has to agree. It's just an opinion same as anyone elses!!

Oleg was champ because a Trinket was up for grabs and Rahman had not beaten a good opponent since Lewis which was a fucking long time ago. Not mention Losing Ruiz and Holyfeild then got a draw with fucking fat Tony. Oleg has been koed a lot after and before Peter actual Oleg every fucking lose has been from a ok so that doesn't tell much about peters power. Also beside Oleg Peter never beat anyone else that was rated top heavy when he fought them. I am just saying that's a guy who should not have caused Wlad the problems he did and i don't thing the 250 to 260 weight did him much good just makes him slow. Most of this eras fighters i mean the 00's at least were people who could not make it in the 90's era and are not better the 80's really. The late 70's guys could most likely hang and few of them did pretty well when they were old as shit. Wlad chin is shit is what i am saying i guess doesn't get hit anymore which is good improvement. The divsion right now is like the 80's with out Tyson and maybe not as Boring as with the 1980's with Holmes. The opponents are ok and then there a few maybe great fighters but overall division far from great.

Well I will maintain my position that Peter is a very hard puncher, I don't think too many would disagree with that.

Now we're onto Wlad's chin by the looks of it.

I noticed even that Classic fool from Boxing News 24 VG_Addict made a thread here regarding Wlad's chin.

Let's take a look at it. Wladimir for a start has now 65? fights all of them 200+ and within the most power-trained and heftiest era in history. That's the most numerous and combined heaviest real HW record of any boxer of all time. And in that time he only 3 times, just THREE was stopped.

One of those was not really a legitimate loss, he would have fallen over anyway a few moments later, he finished the fight on his feet anyway (was not canvas KO'd) even despite the illness.

Of the 2 remaining losses, one of them was a gas out, that is not a chin issue. Otherwise you'd be claiming Foreman had a glass jaw as well!

The remaining loss was against a 6'4" 226lb very fast and aggressive southpaw with a cracker punch. Wlad did not prepare properly as he underestimated him and was taken by surprise and hurt before he could work out the awkward opponent. This marks the only occasion where Wlad was in fact dropped by raw punching power.

But wait there's more to the story! Not only was Sanders no featherfist, unlike some other boxers who have been KO'd be lesser punchers, not only did Wladimir get up several times and still finished the fight on his feet but the whole thing was in fact kicked off by the first hook that was sandwiched by a massive headbutt. That would have badly hurt anybody!

And then there's Peter, a very hard puncher, just look at him! And Wlad got up several times, showing both heart AND chin, to win the fight!

He's only been down a handful of other times in his entire career, the biggest and hardest hitting career of all time!

So Wladimir has always finished a fight on his feet and has never really been stopped by what amounts to a clearly weak chin, not even by Sanders and has on several occasions demonstrated he can take a good punch. He survived Peter, he took a full blooded, unprotected punch from Ruslan Chagaev too and did not wince. He even looks like he could take a decent punch.

Now I'm not saying Wladimir has an iron chin, he doesn't. But I am saying he has a pretty decent chin and that his is widely and severely underrated.

It's not his fault he is so good that he does not get hit often. And if he is capable of avoiding punishment, why the fuck would he want to get hit! Especially in this division! Using his defence as a negative against him is ridiculous.

Equally ridiculous is really thinking the most dominant HW champion of the world of all time for a decade has a weak chin! Were that the case, he'd not be where he is now!