The rematch, Carl Froch - Mikkel Kessler 2 fight chat thread - Warriors Call !!!

Ward needs to cut the umbilical cord. It cannot be a business when it’s convenient and not be when its not. The money and draw are not in Oakland. The winner of the first go around in this market is pretty much irrelevant. Its not like rematches at this level are rare. Lamotta and Robinson fought six times. After all it is prize fighting and Carl brings the cash and is really the biggest fight for Ward if he plans on staying at 168. He said as much with Lampley after the fight. If Froch is not the money man of this division selling out the O2 and having Hbo travel there then I don’t know who is because Ward cannot draw scabs to a bad rash.

Money has taken over boxing :mad:

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

If only we were the fighters accountants ;D Jesus, I have enough of a headache managing my own money.

At the end of the day, they may get payed but does anyone see a difference in the result ??? They very well could fight in the U.K...Oakland..or even Disneyland but I don't. Ward beat him clean. If Froch is serious about revenge, getting him back etc he needs to make the effort and step to Ward. I don't think he will and we'll see Kessler 3.

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Stop making sense. Don't you know it's either to just bad mouth Ward and say he's scared of Froch

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

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And yet our small country, that isn't as big as some of your states, owned you and ruled you for years.

He wasn't bad mouthing your country. He was bad mouthing the ideology that the US is where you must travel to prove your worth in boxing, while US fighters think they don't have to travel to prove anything. It is a moronic opinion when the US no longer has a stronghold on boxing.

From Danish media:

Mikkel Kessler had put everything at stake. His WBC belt, honor - and his career. Kessler had sworn that he would never return to the ring again if he lost to Carl Froch.

And it ended with defeat to Mikkel Kessler with the huge lion heart after 12 laps and judge the scores 118-110, 116-112, 115-113 in Frochs favor.

Particularly in the eighth round got Froch some hard knocks in, revealed Kessler after the fight. - It's hard to see from the outside, but I was really struck deep. It was hard for me to throw back at him after that. I had him later in the game, but I was just so tired. I really should have followed up after I hurt him in the 11th, I just could not. I was completely finished, says Mikkel Kessler.

Mikkel Kessler put up a good fight and looked for the crucial hook that could really shake Froch. But the Englishman appeared at home to be Dane's overmatch, disgusting strong, agile and opportunistic that Kessler's otherwise exemplary counterpunches was not strong enough to convince the judges in the 02 Arena in London.

In 12 and last lap took Kessler lead and landed a prestigious series on the Englishman, but the finishing touches impression handed Froch in a brilliant manner as he in the last twenty seconds forced Kessler on the ropes and landed blow after blow to the Dane.

Thus, it may end in a glorious career, 49 matches and 46 victories for Mikkel Kessler. He had the energy to smile crooked just before the official decision, for it was a Viking warrior who stood erect throughout and was very close to pushing Froch crucial over the edge.

PS Googletranslate but I think you understand anyway.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

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"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

Anyway, tonight is not about Ward or murica and apple pie. I feel privileged to have watched that fight, both men are class acts and true warriors, great fight. The best on British soil for a long time. I have too many Ales to stay awake any lon............................................... .................................................. ........................................

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

Money has taken over boxing :mad:

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You could have made that statement anytime in the 20th century.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

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"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

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Slightly out with the history there matey. :)

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

And yet our small country, that isn't as big as some of your states, owned you and ruled you for years.

He wasn't bad mouthing your country. He was bad mouthing the ideology that the US is where you must travel to prove your worth in boxing, while US fighters think they don't have to travel to prove anything. It is a moronic opinion when the US no longer has a stronghold on boxing.

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What's moronic is a fighter thinking he can dictate financial terms to a fighter who beat him with ease. How much sense does that make? You want him over there than pay him what he deserves. It's that simple. Froch and his people claim they want Ward again. And that they want him in the UK. That's fine. But have they ever made him an offer to prove they really want it? It's easy to say you want it and do nothing. How about prove you want it and make an offer

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

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Yea things would have been better

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

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Yea things would have been better

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It would of been God save Hitler instead of God save the queen.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

And yet our small country, that isn't as big as some of your states, owned you and ruled you for years.

He wasn't bad mouthing your country. He was bad mouthing the ideology that the US is where you must travel to prove your worth in boxing, while US fighters think they don't have to travel to prove anything. It is a moronic opinion when the US no longer has a stronghold on boxing.

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What's moronic is a fighter thinking he can dictate financial terms to a fighter who beat him with ease. How much sense does that make? You want him over there than pay him what he deserves. It's that simple. Froch and his people claim they want Ward again. And that they want him in the UK. That's fine. But have they ever made him an offer to prove they really want it? It's easy to say you want it and do nothing. How about prove you want it and make an offer

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I basically said the same thing earlier in the thread that Ward was using his interview to reveal his negotiating hand. I never said he didn't want it. I'm saying he should want it. While it may seem ridiculous to you, that is Boxing. If you are not the draw, you can't dictate the terms. Hopkins already said to Froch he'd come to the UK, and Froch would likely make more for that than he would for Ward. Since Andre wants the money fights, he doesn't really have another door to go through.

Video of Froch-Kessler II:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfr-Gal9IEY

Its really making a case for not taking Ward. Froch can stay at home and fight Kenny Getup or Dusty Trunks and make the money and draw fans. I'm not disputing the market but at what point does actually wanting to right a loss take over. Ward isn't some pug or homeless also ran. Its his prerogativ as the winner and dominate guy to do as he pleases and he is under zero obligation to take a pay cut or come with tin cup in hand. In the end it will be Froch not making the fight if it doesn't come off, and I like the guy! If you can beat him, go get him.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

And yet our small country, that isn't as big as some of your states, owned you and ruled you for years.

He wasn't bad mouthing your country. He was bad mouthing the ideology that the US is where you must travel to prove your worth in boxing, while US fighters think they don't have to travel to prove anything. It is a moronic opinion when the US no longer has a stronghold on boxing.

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What's moronic is a fighter thinking he can dictate financial terms to a fighter who beat him with ease. How much sense does that make? You want him over there than pay him what he deserves. It's that simple. Froch and his people claim they want Ward again. And that they want him in the UK. That's fine. But have they ever made him an offer to prove they really want it? It's easy to say you want it and do nothing. How about prove you want it and make an offer

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I basically said the same thing earlier in the thread that Ward was using his interview to reveal his negotiating hand. I never said he didn't want it. I'm saying he should want it. While it may seem ridiculous to you, that is Boxing. If you are not the draw, you can't dictate the terms. Hopkins already said to Froch he'd come to the UK, and Froch would likely make more for that than he would for Ward. Since Andre wants the money fights, he doesn't really have another door to go through.

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Exactly. If there's no offer there's no door to go through. And based on the post fight interview it sure sounds like Froch would rather fight Kessler again than Ward

Post-fight Press conference here:

Carl Froch post fight press conference - YouTube

I scored the fight 115-113 Froch. Big win for him.

I don't want to speak to soon but this is looking good thus far. Not much time feeling each other out

On top of my laptop breaking this week and finishing with the girl I love , I dropped my iPhone in the toilet and it broke, I might not be able to post on here for a bit unless I can borrow my friends laptop but until I can get things sorted, ill be off the radar :( I know froch won, but I am gutted here. Today has been such a good bad day :(! Catch everyone soon.

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Originally Posted by Tam Seddon

On top of my laptop breaking this week and finishing with the girl I love , I dropped my iPhone in the toilet and it broke, I might not be able to post on here for a bit unless I can borrow my friends laptop but until I can get things sorted, ill be off the radar :( I know froch won, but I am gutted here. Today has been such a good bad day :(! Catch everyone soon.

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Very sorry to hear you are going through some doo doo. As we know from experience, all things must pass. Stay well

Carl Froch has crossed the Atlantic to fight several times, including his loss to Ward.
Andre Ward would gain so much more respect if he were to venture outside the U.S. for the first time to take on Froch again.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

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Yea things would have been better

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It would of been God save Hitler instead of God save the queen.

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Blitzkrieg tactics didn't work on the uk and the axis all but decided not to bother with the UK after their tactics of quickly crippling s nation's infastructure before invading failed.

The eventual German defeat had as much to do with Hitler spreading the German army over two fronts than the US intervening... They'd lost the war in western europe the second they tried to invade russua IN THE WINTER.

Educate yourself.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

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And look at the UK's ratio of champions over recent years versus the USA which is fuck knows how many times bigger and has 5 times the population! The USA's position in boxing is close to laughable for the 3rd biggest population in the world and with opportunities afforded to people

For such a huge nation's amature program not to produce any gold medals doesn't bode to well for the calibre of future talent coming up from it either... :-\

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

For such a huge nation's amature program not to produce any gold medals doesn't bode to well for the calibre of future talent coming up from it either... :-\

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I wonder does it have a lot to do with, lets say random drug testing.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

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Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

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Yea things would have been better

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It would of been God save Hitler instead of God save the queen.

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Blitzkrieg tactics didn't work on the uk and the axis all but decided not to bother with the UK after their tactics of quickly crippling s nation's infastructure before invading failed.

The eventual German defeat had as much to do with Hitler spreading the German army over two fronts than the US intervening... They'd lost the war in western europe the second they tried to invade russua IN THE WINTER.

Educate yourself.

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American white groups were mostly German people closely followed by Irish then English not far behind,only a % or so.

We all share the same Ancestors if white, get over your selves you are all from the same stock.

America came in because of Japan, not as some saviors of Europe and the truth is Churchill got America into the war via Japan. (If you know what he didnt do, you would agree).

But thanks for the help clearing it up and removing the Japs out of the equation cause honestly they were giving us Aussies more than we could handle in Singapore and Indonesia. :beerchug: Cheers

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

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US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

---

Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

---

Yea things would have been better

---

It would of been God save Hitler instead of God save the queen.

---

Blitzkrieg tactics didn't work on the uk and the axis all but decided not to bother with the UK after their tactics of quickly crippling s nation's infastructure before invading failed.

The eventual German defeat had as much to do with Hitler spreading the German army over two fronts than the US intervening... They'd lost the war in western europe the second they tried to invade russua IN THE WINTER.

Educate yourself.

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I'm very educated on the war. There's no denying Hitler invading Russia was one of the things that caused his downfall. But lets be real here. Britain would have fallen without the US help. Without Lend-Lease and all the other material shit it was getting from the US before the US even joined the war, Britain would of gone out like the French. Without the US, Britain wouldn't of been able to defend itself. Not only that but Britain no longer had resources to go on the offensive against Germany without the US. Yeah they could of maybe held out until Russia made it's strength felt, but I doubt it. And even then Russia was also relying heavily on US provided supplies. That's not opinion. Those are facts. So like I said, respect what saved you

Is this the preamble for Andre Ward v Carl Froch war?

I remember the good old days on these boards with the intense USA vs UK rivalries. I'm huge on this concept because aside from the very dark Calzage vs Lacy period, the USA always wins. The best, most relevant fights in the world take place in America. This is fact. That is why Pacquaio Hatton happened in the USA even tthough both could've sold out soccer stadiums in either countr. Name one instance of any fighter ever cobvincingly losing and then completely dictating the terms of a rematch. I say hold the fight in OOakland with 3 British judges and watch Froch lose again to a boring fighter

It's a bit pathetic how many people have become Ward bitches overnight when Froch has shown no intention of avoiding him. The arrogance of Andre Ward accusing Froch of cashing in and going for easy pay days on the night that Carl met someone who had already beaten him is pretty desperate.

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Originally Posted by amat

I remember the good old days on these boards with the intense USA vs UK rivalries. I'm huge on this concept because aside from the very dark Calzage vs Lacy period, the USA always wins. The best, most relevant fights in the world take place in America. This is fact. That is why Pacquaio Hatton happened in the USA even tthough both could've sold out soccer stadiums in either countr. Name one instance of any fighter ever cobvincingly losing and then completely dictating the terms of a rematch. I say hold the fight in OOakland with 3 British judges and watch Froch lose again to a boring fighter

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In this particular instance the fight makes far more money in the UK than it does in the States. Froch isn't in a position to dictate terms as Ward doesn't need the fight but he's bringing the money which gives him efective parity in negotiations as Ward wants the money. I think Froch loses in a boring fight to a boring fighter but there's no way it happens in America. If it happens it's in front of a stadium full of Brits instead of five to eight thousand apathetic Americans.

That's the thing, 4000 fans in a krappy venue for a world title fight and America thinks it's the center of boxing. It's just fantasy. Ward won't come to the UK just like Mayweather won't despite threatening it.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

That's the thing, 4000 fans in a krappy venue for a world title fight and America thinks it's the center of boxing. It's just fantasy. Ward won't come to the UK just like Mayweather won't despite threatening it.

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If he gets offered enough money he'll come.

I'm watched the fight again, watched the Gonzalez fight then came here. I'm just watching the interviews afterwards now. I'm pleased it was all so respectful afterwards. I still don't like Froch but you can't help admire what he does in the ring and his body of work over the last five years.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by KickMuck

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

These yankees are always deluded; they think the whole world is america: there's 195 other countries in the world, you self-absorbed jack@$$es! One time, america was a stronghold for boxing, but no longer. Plenty of world-class boxing is taking place outside of america featuring world-class non-american fighters.

---

US being bad mouthed by a country that's not even as big as some of it's states. :vd:

---

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


The Spanish tried to invade my country once, right here a couple of miles from my doorstep. We had a queen at the time and we still kicked their ass and sent them packing,.....your speaking their language.

---

Respect what saved you. If it wasn't for the US you'll be draped in black, red and gold. Instead of the Union Jack

---

Yea things would have been better

---

It would of been God save Hitler instead of God save the queen.

---

Blitzkrieg tactics didn't work on the uk and the axis all but decided not to bother with the UK after their tactics of quickly crippling s nation's infastructure before invading failed.

The eventual German defeat had as much to do with Hitler spreading the German army over two fronts than the US intervening... They'd lost the war in western europe the second they tried to invade russua IN THE WINTER.

Educate yourself.

---

I'm very educated on the war. There's no denying Hitler invading Russia was one of the things that caused his downfall. But lets be real here. Britain would have fallen without the US help. Without Lend-Lease and all the other material shit it was getting from the US before the US even joined the war, Britain would of gone out like the French. Without the US, Britain wouldn't of been able to defend itself. Not only that but Britain no longer had resources to go on the offensive against Germany without the US. Yeah they could of maybe held out until Russia made it's strength felt, but I doubt it. And even then Russia was also relying heavily on US provided supplies. That's not opinion. Those are facts. So like I said, respect what saved you

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I 'respect' that multiple nations won the second world war. It's nice to hear you change you rhetoric slightly, even if you are still massively downplaying Hitler ignoring all of his generals by trying to fight a war on two fronts (when the harsh conditions of the eastern front could barely be supplied alone).

The likely outcome of the US joining later or not at all is that Britain is war torn for a few more years while the German Eastern Front eventually collapses.

Luckily the UK withstood Blitzkrieg (unlike the rest of western europe), or else you lose your base to invade normandy and the war goes on several years longer than it should have.

Thanks to the US for closing things quicker, shame they didn't step in sooner, they certainatly stopped the pacific and far east from being fucked.

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Originally Posted by amat

I remember the good old days on these boards with the intense USA vs UK rivalries. I'm huge on this concept because aside from the very dark Calzage vs Lacy period, the USA always wins. The best, most relevant fights in the world take place in America. This is fact. That is why Pacquaio Hatton happened in the USA even tthough both could've sold out soccer stadiums in either countr. Name one instance of any fighter ever cobvincingly losing and then completely dictating the terms of a rematch. I say hold the fight in OOakland with 3 British judges and watch Froch lose again to a boring fighter

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Agreed, but this is different... Pac and Hatton could sell tickets anywhere in the world, Ward barely does it in his own home.

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Originally Posted by amat

I remember the good old days on these boards with the intense USA vs UK rivalries. I'm huge on this concept because aside from the very dark Calzage vs Lacy period, the USA always wins. The best, most relevant fights in the world take place in America. This is fact. That is why Pacquaio Hatton happened in the USA even tthough both could've sold out soccer stadiums in either countr. Name one instance of any fighter ever cobvincingly losing and then completely dictating the terms of a rematch. I say hold the fight in OOakland with 3 British judges and watch Froch lose again to a boring fighter

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Lets not confuse Las Vegas with the rest of America.

Ward Dawson did 8K in attendance and was a decently exciting live fight. Ward is still young and an Olympic gold medalist, for anyone to suggest he is a lame duck is full of it. Even if he was, Hopkins still isn't a draw to this day! Why should we as boxing fans care? Oracle isn't even conducive to watching boxing (the UFC did a similar gate for a ppv event.. ) People in America know who Ward is and his visibility is higher because of his HBO gig. NOBODY here talks about Froch, Mayweather, Paccquaio and the Mexicans are the only ones who move the needle in America. Broner after that and thats just bbecause I'm lucky enough to live in a boxing conscience area in the Bay Area. Both Ward and Froch are good for boxing as is Kessler. Ward is the number 2 p4p guy in the sport and no one wants to see this fight in England because of the crowd, they just want to see a more competitive Ward Froch fight than wha took place at a nearly nneutral venue. I don't care but I think anyone saying this bout Has to happen in England is ridiculous. Why not make Martinez Chavez 2 in Mexico? Why not? Good for Froch but if some stubborn refusal to come to the USA after Froch clearly lost a bout here holds up this fight then that isn't on Ward.

With that said, if the bout isn't in Oakland and I can't go, I would like to see it happen in England.

Glad we can have a discussion about Americas relevance and token tardy effort on Memorial Day ffs. Better late than never, mates :p

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Originally Posted by BIG H

And look at the UK's ratio of champions over recent years versus the USA which is fuck knows how many times bigger and has 5 times the population! The USA's position in boxing is close to laughable for the 3rd biggest population in the world and with opportunities afforded to people

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Yes indeed.
Good to see the per capita argument used elsewhere, as it lends more credence to it when used elsewhere. :)