Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Punisher136
The ali from '66 beats anybody. At that point in his career his speed and movement were at their absolute peak. And he had a chin so it's not a matter of catching him with a lucky punch, it's a matter of consistantly connecting and nobody throughout the history of the heavyweight division had the necessary package of speed (both with punches and ring movement), skill, or stamina (many had any two of the three but never all three) to keep enough pressure on him to beat him.
I got a dvd for christmas which lists the top 10 heavyweights of all time according to burt sugar (a very good espn ringside dvd with old fight footage for dempsey and even jack johnson). Holmes was 10th which made me an instant fan of the dvd. He gave louis the nod over ali and when confronted with larry's (who was present so they could tell him he was number 10 ;D) view point of louis would never catch ali, burt said that head to head matchups were not part of his criteria. And he put 25 title defenses (22 by ko) ahead of ali's resume. He also admitted he may have had a bias seeing as louis was his hero growing up.
So if you're comparing in a head-to-head mtach up to determine hypothetical greatness, ali has to be the favorite but if you want to compare greatness on the scale of just what each guy did in his era, there's room for debate there.
Bert Sugar had Holmes at number 10 or did i misread that ?? if he did then that is very disappointing :(
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
I think Tyson in his prime would have had a chance against Ali and any other heavyweight in history. Its either because of his speed, ability to offload combinations, raw power and good defensive skills (for which he was underappreciated), or because I was about 18 when he won the title and he made me feel the same way as I imagine Ali made boxing fans feel in the 60s. Also, I think Gary Mason would have given Ali a right battle.
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure
#1 hw is a toss up between louis and ali.........
i really cant decide though i am leaning towards ali due to way better competition even though louis reigned for so long.
they are both great champs but i probably see it like this.............top 5
#1...ALI
#2...LOUIS
#3...TYSON
#4...LEWIS
#5...FRAZIER,JOHNSON,LISTON,FOREMAN,HOLMES....TIED , cause i cant make up my mind on #5
but i wouldnt put marciano in top #5 just cause he fought S*** opposition .
....and every one of these fighters i mentioned would beat him PRIME 4 PRIME
Tyson at number 3 ?? you have to be kidding me. I know your Tyson fan but come on be realistic no way is Tyson top 3. He isn't even top 5 let alone top 3.
hey long time no see :) ok maybe i was being a bit generous there. but i defo have tyson in top #5 just based on his accomplishments early in his carrer.
youngest HW champ
fist to unify all 3 belts
most exciting fighter of all time
uhh .......awsome defense, best combination puncher i have ever seen at HW.
just think if he had retired after spinks everyone would rate him in top #5 even #1 or#2. so thats how i rate him, pre-douglas, kevin rooney trained....... the closest any one has come to being unbeatable 8)
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure
#1 hw is a toss up between louis and ali.........
i really cant decide though i am leaning towards ali due to way better competition even though louis reigned for so long.
they are both great champs but i probably see it like this.............top 5
#1...ALI
#2...LOUIS
#3...TYSON
#4...LEWIS
#5...FRAZIER,JOHNSON,LISTON,FOREMAN,HOLMES....TIED , cause i cant make up my mind on #5
but i wouldnt put marciano in top #5 just cause he fought S*** opposition .
....and every one of these fighters i mentioned would beat him PRIME 4 PRIME
i agree with ali as #1 --but louis opposition was the same quality as marcianos-even some of the same --walcott ,charles-i think if people put down marciano 4 his opposition, they need 2 put down louis as well. but your top 5 is a good list overall.
yes but at least louis fought these men in there prime or close to it. i have now doubt that if marciano faught on for a little longer he would have lost. walcott was almost 40 when they fought and he was outpointing marciano easy in there fist match, he even knocked rocky down in the first rd........ prime louis would beat marciano, and so would ali but men like lennox lewis and mike tyson would kill marciano.
peace 8)
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
He was known as "the greatest" for a reason...
Lewis - Never liked him, too boring and didnt like getting hit - fought passed prime fighters i.e tyson, holyfield. Tyson would have whooped him in his prime. (lewis not ali)
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
You can't underestimate Lewis though. His size alone makes him an imposing proposition for any fighter. Add to that his skills, well oiled jab and uppercut and I feel Tyson at any age was in trouble.
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Cuchulain
You can't underestimate Lewis though. His size alone makes him an imposing proposition for any fighter. Add to that his skills, well oiled jab and uppercut and I feel Tyson at any age was in trouble.
im not knocking lewis cause he is an ATG, but in the tyson fight mike had no head movement what so ever he only threw like 13 punches a round.
compare that to the tyson of old who threw 70 punches a round. lots of head movement,awsome combinations.... just relentless attack
put them together in the ring and i think it would be one of the most competitve, exciting fights of all time
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure
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Originally Posted by Cuchulain
You can't underestimate Lewis though. His size alone makes him an imposing proposition for any fighter. Add to that his skills, well oiled jab and uppercut and I feel Tyson at any age was in trouble.
im not knocking lewis cause he is an ATG, but in the tyson fight mike had no head movement what so ever he only threw like 13 punches a round.
compare that to the tyson of old who threw 70 punches a round. lots of head movement,awsome combinations.... just relentless attack
put them together in the ring and i think it would be one of the most competitve, exciting fights of all time
I'm agreeing.
Following the death of d'Amato i feel head movement was abandoned in training. It remained for a while as Tyson had it drilled into him so hard in the beginning at Catskills. However, it faded quickly as the trainers were too in awe of his power to concentrate on speed and tactics.
Tyson could have been even greater had he had a triner like Futch later in his career (From 1987 on.) It was at that stage he most desperately neede the guidnace and tutelage that only Cus could offer him. (Although Eddi Futch would have been a perfectly acceptable alternative.)
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Mr140
Well SRl lost to Duran who is in the top10 greatest of all time and pound for pound list and SRL won more and his draw was later in his career and his losses were when he was 35 and 41 so losses do not matter as much as people think if PBF fought till he was 41 and lost would you count it against him no i do not think you would. records are not always the best thing to go off of so do not buy to much into them.
Joe Louis has losses on his record to some pretty damned good fighters too
Rocky Marciano fought everyone he could possibly fight and never lost...there HAS to be some respect for that achievement.
I never doubted the greatness of Ali I just don't believe he's greater than Louis and Marciano
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by undefeated
think about it--no1 could--frazier, louis, dempesy , marciano, holmes, foreman,holyfield ,tyson, and yes norton. the 60's ali was the REAL ali-FLABSLAB. no1 1 could have beaten the 60's ali
Are you high? :alcoholic: :lol: Ali sucked ass.
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Lyle
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Originally Posted by Mr140
Well SRl lost to Duran who is in the top10 greatest of all time and pound for pound list and SRL won more and his draw was later in his career and his losses were when he was 35 and 41 so losses do not matter as much as people think if PBF fought till he was 41 and lost would you count it against him no i do not think you would. records are not always the best thing to go off of so do not buy to much into them.
Joe Louis has losses on his record to some pretty damned good fighters too
Rocky Marciano fought everyone he could possibly fight and never lost...there HAS to be some respect for that achievement.
I never doubted the greatness of Ali I just don't believe he's greater than Louis and Marciano
There is some respect for Marciano. In reality though, people look in awe of great athletes mainly because they are able to do what seemingly not many else can do. Not many could have scored 81 points like Kobe did. No one else could run the table in the modern era like the Patriots did. No one else could take out a prime Joe Frazier in 2 rounds like Foreman did. When you look at Marciano's resume of opponents, the consensus is probably well over a dozen heavyweight champions would have gone 49-0 as well with that opposition. Not many heavyweights could take a prime Foreman's punishment then knock him out. A junior college team in football can go 14-0, and would have done so playing everyone on their schedule, not ducking anyone. Unfortunately that doesn't mean as much when you think of the fact that none of the players would even be starting on a D-I team. This is why Ali is the most widely regarded as the greatest Heavyweight Champion of all time.
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
Then why has no heavyweight since then gone undefeated and broken Marciano's record?
Nicolay Valuev couldn't do it and his opposition was absolute SHIT!
Larry Holmes couldn't do it and he fought and got beat by a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!
Mike Tyson couldn't even come close!
By your rational we should have a heavyweight fighting RIGHT NOW who has beaten Marciano's record and it hasn't happened not yet and not in the forseeable future
And Rocky didn't just beat 49 fighters....he KO'd 43 of them!
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Lyle
Then why has no heavyweight since then gone undefeated and broken Marciano's record?
Nicolay Valuev couldn't do it and his opposition was absolute S***!
Larry Holmes couldn't do it and he fought and got beat by a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!
Mike Tyson couldn't even come close!
By your rational we should have a heavyweight fighting RIGHT NOW who has beaten Marciano's record and it hasn't happened not yet and not in the forseeable future
And Rocky didn't just beat 49 fighters....he KO'd 43 of them!
You basically just wrote that post as if you didn't read a single word I just wrote. Did you read the post you responded to? I said Marciano's opposition, not Holmes opposition (and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marciano retire at the age of 32, and Holmes lost his first fight at the age of 36?). And please don't tell me you believe Valuev to be one of the dozen or so heavyweights that I'm talking about.
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Lyle
Then why has no heavyweight since then gone undefeated and broken Marciano's record?
Nicolay Valuev couldn't do it and his opposition was absolute S***!
Larry Holmes couldn't do it and he fought and got beat by a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!
Mike Tyson couldn't even come close!
By your rational we should have a heavyweight fighting RIGHT NOW who has beaten Marciano's record and it hasn't happened not yet and not in the forseeable future
And Rocky didn't just beat 49 fighters....he KO'd 43 of them!
Lyle, Rocky Marciano fought 11 guys that weighed over 200 pounds. Gimme a f@ckin' break ::**
Re: 60's ALI: there is no HW great that could have beaten him.
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure
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Originally Posted by undefeated
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure
#1 hw is a toss up between louis and ali.........
i really cant decide though i am leaning towards ali due to way better competition even though louis reigned for so long.
they are both great champs but i probably see it like this.............top 5
#1...ALI
#2...LOUIS
#3...TYSON
#4...LEWIS
#5...FRAZIER,JOHNSON,LISTON,FOREMAN,HOLMES....TIED , cause i cant make up my mind on #5
but i wouldnt put marciano in top #5 just cause he fought S*** opposition .
....and every one of these fighters i mentioned would beat him PRIME 4 PRIME
i agree with ali as #1 --but louis opposition was the same quality as marcianos-even some of the same --walcott ,charles-i think if people put down marciano 4 his opposition, they need 2 put down louis as well. but your top 5 is a good list overall.
yes but
at least louis fought these men in there prime or close to it. i have now doubt that if marciano faught on for a little longer he would have lost.
walcott was almost 40 when they fought and he was outpointing marciano easy in there fist match, he even knocked rocky down in the first rd........ prime louis would beat marciano, and so would ali but men like lennox lewis and mike tyson would kill marciano.
peace 8)
yes a prime 2ton tony and billy conn. --and braddock was 37 when louis beat him so thats almost 40 as well-and braddock knocked down louis in the second round. i think tyson would beat marciano-but i think tyson and lewis would kill louis as well. a prime louis could prob beat marciano--that ones a toss up 2 me--i think rocky could beat a prime louis if he gets in a few of his right hands in--but i dont think a prime louis would allow that
