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Read my whole post twinkle,Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
Yet somehow you think fighting twice a year produces a better, more skillful fighter than someone who fights 5 fights per year. A fighter gets good by fighting a lot, son...Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
Dont cherry pick
You going to answer my question yet?
And from your eyes, Floyd was a man among boys in the amateurs. Whatever losses he had he was robbed in. Could of challenged for a title in his pro debut if he wanted to. Became champion at 130 and cleaned out the division. Cleaned out 135 and 140 too. Took on the top dogs at 147 and beat them all. Went to 154 and cleaned it out too. Would of clean out 160 if he wanted too. But he considers Sergio Martinez a friend. And being the swell guy he is he would never fight his friend. Should be in the HOF as an active fighter. He's that great. Him saying he is better than Sugar Ray is true. Cuz he really is. He beat him. I know he did. The haters don't realize that with all the money Floyd has, he has 2 time machines. He probably even got 3. He's gone back in time and beat all the past greats. And he's done it more than once too. That's the type of shit Floyd does in his spare time. And he still gets hated on. He could win every title on his way to heavyweight if he wanted to. He doesn't do it cuz he doesn't wanna hog up every title. He wants other fighters to be champion too. That's the type of great guy Floyd is. If he wanted to be he could be heavyweight champion. Everybody knows Floyd vs Wlad is a 50-50 fight. Yet everybody still hates on him. Never lost a round in his life. Never ducked anyone. Did time For something he didn't do. Gives out sandwiches to the homeless. And it's still not enough. Everybody always wants to hate on this saint of a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by impIt never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So why not tell us who fits this imaginary criteria then?
Violent demise seems to think margarito fits this bill so who else is not guilty of all the things and "what ifs" floyd has done?
Floyd seems to have just plodded along through the amateurs, and got lucky through the pros to get to this point through careful cherry picking and faced no challenges and cant carry durans jockstrap.
What boxer is clear of any criticism?
No no no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseAnd from your eyes, Floyd was a man among boys in the amateurs. Whatever losses he had he was robbed in. Could of challenged for a title in his pro debut if he wanted to. Became champion at 130 and cleaned out the division. Cleaned out 135 and 140 too. Took on the top dogs at 147 and beat them all. Went to 154 and cleaned it out too. Would of clean out 160 if he wanted too. But he considers Sergio Martinez a friend. And being the swell guy he is he would never fight his friend. Should be in the HOF as an active fighter. He's that great. Him saying he is better than Sugar Ray is true. Cuz he really is. He beat him. I know he did. The haters don't realize that with all the money Floyd has, he has 2 time machines. He probably even got 3. He's gone back in time and beat all the past greats. And he's done it more than once too. That's the type of shit Floyd does in his spare time. And he still gets hated on. He could win every title on his way to heavyweight if he wanted to. He doesn't do it cuz he doesn't wanna hog up every title. He wants other fighters to be champion too. That's the type of great guy Floyd is. If he wanted to be he could be heavyweight champion. Everybody knows Floyd vs Wlad is a 50-50 fight. Yet everybody still hates on him. Never lost a round in his life. Never ducked anyone. Did time For something he didn't do. Gives out sandwiches to the homeless. And it's still not enough. Everybody always wants to hate on this saint of a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by impIt never stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
So why not tell us who fits this imaginary criteria then?
Violent demise seems to think margarito fits this bill so who else is not guilty of all the things and "what ifs" floyd has done?
Floyd seems to have just plodded along through the amateurs, and got lucky through the pros to get to this point through careful cherry picking and faced no challenges and cant carry durans jockstrap.
What boxer is clear of any criticism?
Your not reading my posts through and your just avoiding my question like bradlee is.
Ive already said floyd has flaws and etc and listened to all the opinions.
Im asking who you think in todays era has not done all the things floyd is criticised for?
Simple
What imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
You won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
I knew i wouldnt get an answer from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYou won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
Shame they cant answer the questions that matter instead of going round in circles all the time.
Heavyweight divison whether stagnant or not is the heavyweight divison.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWhat imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
Eveyone wants to be the heavyweight champion of the world its the limit in any contact sport.
In the lower divisons there is movement to challenge others from other neighbouring weight classes but at the end of the day Talent is Talent regardless of what divison you are in.
Just think if mayweather was a heavyweight, his bank balance would be insane.
Thanks to the mod who banned ('onetime' Match purist whoever it really is) for a week while Ive been asleep. When he comes back in a week, its my turn :cool:. Just for being rude.
They'd expect more KOs from him at heavyweight but I don't disagree with anything you said. He's a great boxer I never denied that.Quote:
Originally Posted by impHeavyweight divison whether stagnant or not is the heavyweight divison.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWhat imaginary criteria? Listen, for the billionth time nobody is saying Floyd isn't great read that, if you take offense to anything I've posted re-read that line again and remind yourself of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
JMM also a great fighter, however 135 was very tough for him. He did win 2 fights there, but he had a lot of trouble, Baby Bull was giving JMM hell....BABY BULL!!! So of course giving JMM a fight where he had to go up in weight even more when he hadn't settled at 135 yet is just ridiculous. And we're supposed to give Floyd credit for beating THE JMM??? The real top class, P4P status having JMM....no, that was a ridiculous fight to have. That said they are 2 great fighters and it is always good to see 2 great fighters willing to fight each other
Ricky Hatton was THE MAN at 140, everyone agrees with that. Now I don't complain about the ref like a lot of people do :rolleyes: nor the ring size not anything but the weight the fight was signed at. Ricky Hatton had attempted to fight at 147 before fighting Floyd...Luis Collazo worked him over and some people thought he deserved to win that fight! And then Ricky goes back to 140, he's shaky there and after that Floyd says "Hey let's fight at 147"
Again, that being said timing is tough in the world of boxing, everyone (repeat) EVERYONE is hounded by the "what-ifs", "yeah buts", and so on (more so if they want to be considered a great, sorry THERE ARE STANDARDS). But Floyd being as big of a star as he is, he could have landed damn near any fight he wanted. This kind of thing hasn't only happened 1 time or 2 times, it's been a career long thing, but hey more power to Floyd he's an All-Time Great and all he does is win.
No boxer is immune to criticism and if anyone wants a criticism of Wlad or Vitali I'd give them as harsh a criticism as I do Floyd, but you have to understand, the heavyweight division is stagnant, people don't move up and down and there's not a never ending supply of top tier fighters from other divisions jumping in line to challenge the heavyweight champions, typically former heavyweights will unretire to fight for the title again and that's where some "fresh blood" comes in. Happens all the time. Floyd is gifted in being a welterweight because he can fight damn near anyone within about a 2 weight class range.
Eveyone wants to be the heavyweight champion of the world its the limit in any contact sport.
In the lower divisons there is movement to challenge others from other neighbouring weight classes but at the end of the day Talent is Talent regardless of what divison you are in.
Just think if mayweather was a heavyweight, his bank balance would be insane.
You fellas still at it?!
http://scheincommunications.com/wp-c...lish_thumb.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI
Roberto, you had your time at the top, let Floyd have his. Who gives a damn about your opinion?
This is very true and also very much glossed over. You're referring to the Murderers Row. No one wanted a part of them and yes the very own Sugar Ray Robinson avoided them too. Some people just won't admit the old timers weren't so special/different or really don't know their history and just go with the snowballing consensus opinion. With a set opinion it will only turn a debate into an argument with no chance of resolution. So I just leave the facts on the table and walk away.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYou won't get an answer haha. People want to villify Floyd so they act like he's the only one who did it.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
If anyone did any research they'd know that champs have been doing that since boxing's beginnings.
Read Jake Lamotta's autobiography: he mentions the fact that there were certain black fighters who were absolute killers that the champs and other upper-level guys wouldn't go near. Jake even goes on to say a lot of them would have chased champs like SRR out of the ring.
So take Sugar Ray Robinson, the consensus #1 of all time.
-Avoided fighters (this has been stated by peers like Jake Lamotta)
-Egomaniac with a large entourage (he even hired a midget to make him laugh/cheer him up)
-Beat the shit out of his wife and kids (a fact confirmed by his kids)
I don't see how he was all that different from Floyd, but people love to talk about the old guys like they were "real men", as opposed to the sissies who fight now adays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jehoshaphat
Yeah, and to clarify to others I'm not saying SRR was afraid of anyone. SRR would have fought any of those guys people say he ducked, had they been the biggest money fights at the time IMO.
It's all about risk and reward. As a fighter, you want to take the fight that offers you the most reward. This is prize fighting, after all. Most of the time, the biggest reward fight is against the toughest guy. But every now and then you get it where the toughest guy is relatively unknown (most likely because he's the toughest and nobody of note wants to fight him), and it isn't the money fight.
I mean if anyone has an example where a champion turned down a big money fight to take on a notoriously tough but relative unknown for a fraction of the purse, feel free to post it. I can't think of one.
Perhaps I'm being naïve here but didn't organized crime have something to do with those fellas not getting any shots....but hey Organized Crime, Boxing Commissions, what's the difference?
For all his finesse and ability Floyd has not fought the one guy from this era who has some similarities to Duran. Hell, he even looks like him a little with his beard and all. Manny will be remembered as being anything but ordinary. Roberto is doing FMJ a disservice by calling him ordinary but Floyd has only himself to blame for history maybe not looking as kindly on his legacy as he would wish. Pacquiao fought Cotto 3 years before Floyd was willing to, he looked way more impressive against Hatton and Oscar, he fought Margarito, he was willing to fight people like Morales and Barrera earlier in his career, even though they were very dangerous and he had to rematch Morales twice to avenge his first defeat and prove it was no fluke. So yes there are boxers today who are not so obsessed with keeping their 0 that they take an obsessively safety first route their whole career.
Nobody is calling Floyd a bum, he is certainly an ATG but he is a long way from being as great as he thinks he is, and that is primarily his fault.