Twin Towers WTC v Grenfell Tower

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

I would admit I was wrong if I thought I was, but I think most people would agree that having ruffians in the area makes it more difficult for everyone to live a decent life. Morrissey didn't write Rusholme Ruffians about making daisies in a field.

Dia, I don't think it is that I am forgetting my roots. I think part of the trouble is I remember those days too well and it has always left a bad impression on me. I remember the roots too well. I think the good people on a council estate despair of having a football hit their car despite the no ball games signs and a park just down the road, of the neighbor who plays noisy techno and smokes weed when they could just buy a pair of headphones, of the thug who gets young girls pregnant, all of that. It's not particularly snobbish to not want to be around it. I'm just an ordinary quiet bloke who likes that adult life is nothing like life as a kid.

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Miles life is a rocky road mate you would have to say but you have got on dont feel ashamed were you come from feel proud mate.
Remember this debate about the scum bags shit bags weed smoking idiots is down to eduction
or lack of in most cases.
Miles as a educator you should be well aware of this so in some cases you have to cut people some slack they cant help being thick fuckers.
Council houses are for people and a small minority may just not be to the best mate I can see your points but hell you turned out okay so there is more good than bad, take it from me.;)

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, please answer these questions.
a) Would you like to have bum sex with a man?

b) Would you be happy with a council estate neighbor who has 6 children, no father figure, and smokes weed while claiming disability despite having nothing more than a cooked up doctors paper while you dutifully go to work everyday, have no kids and are a dedicated partner?

Please get off the fence and answer these pertinent questions truthfully. Same to you Beanz.

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Fence? How is seeing all sides stemming from an unspeakable tragedy translated into fence-sitting? :-\

But to answer your questions:

a) No.
b) No.


Although to qualify my answer on B, I'm not happy with anyone who cheats the system and basically lives off the taxes we working-folks pay..... be they neighbors of mine or not. Anyone raising 6 kids, and who fraudulently claims disability in order to get government handouts is not only a burden to the rest of us, but a bad example to their own children.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, please answer these questions.
a) Would you like to have bum sex with a man?

b) Would you be happy with a council estate neighbor who has 6 children, no father figure, and smokes weed while claiming disability despite having nothing more than a cooked up doctors paper while you dutifully go to work everyday, have no kids and are a dedicated partner?

Please get off the fence and answer these pertinent questions truthfully. Same to you Beanz.

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Fence? How is seeing all sides stemming from an unspeakable tragedy translated into fence-sitting? :-\

But to answer your questions:

a) No.
b) No.


Although to qualify my answer on B, I'm not happy with anyone who cheats the system and basically lives off the taxes we working-folks pay..... be they neighbors of mine or not. Anyone raising 6 kids, and who fraudulently claims disability in order to get government handouts is not only a burden to the rest of us, but a bad example to their own children.

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I believe that Welfare although a good idea, hurts the people it intends to help. Welfare and the Community Reinvestment Act have damn near destroyed the Black 2 parent household and what a boon to society THAT has been :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, please answer these questions.
a) Would you like to have bum sex with a man?

b) Would you be happy with a council estate neighbor who has 6 children, no father figure, and smokes weed while claiming disability despite having nothing more than a cooked up doctors paper while you dutifully go to work everyday, have no kids and are a dedicated partner?

Please get off the fence and answer these pertinent questions truthfully. Same to you Beanz.

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Fence? How is seeing all sides stemming from an unspeakable tragedy translated into fence-sitting? :-\

But to answer your questions:

a) No.
b) No.


Although to qualify my answer on B, I'm not happy with anyone who cheats the system and basically lives off the taxes we working-folks pay..... be they neighbors of mine or not. Anyone raising 6 kids, and who fraudulently claims disability in order to get government handouts is not only a burden to the rest of us, but a bad example to their own children.

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I believe that Welfare although a good idea, hurts the people it intends to help. Welfare and the Community Reinvestment Act have damn near destroyed the Black 2 parent household and what a boon to society THAT has been :rolleyes:

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..... and it's entirely the government's fault. A bunch of lazy politicians, too lazy to actually write laws that work and make sense. Instead, putting a band-aid on everything just like they treat every other issue. People will take what's given to them. You give them something for free, they'll continue to hold out their hand.

Politicians and their half-baked ideas are the scourge of humanity, and have caused many of the societal problems we face today. It's most likely a universal problem, though, and not limited to the US.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

..... and it's entirely the government's fault. A bunch of lazy politicians, too lazy to actually write laws that work and make sense. Instead, putting a band-aid on everything just like they treat every other issue. People will take what's given to them. You give them something for free, they'll continue to hold out their hand.

Politicians and their half-baked ideas are the scourge of humanity, and have caused many of the societal problems we face today. It's most likely a universal problem, though, and not limited to the US.

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Well it's politicians, it's human behavioral psychology, it's a lot of things and everyone suffers because of it. The impoverished are robbed of their dignity and their work ethic, they're punished if they attempt to improve their station in life (at least from the start they're punished by welfare benefits being taken away, it's not an insurmountable task but it's more difficult to do the whole pick yourself up by the boot straps deal because of that), tax payers flip the bill for this and there's much better things to spend money on (when we're talking about young, able bodied people who have resigned from attempting to work), you get higher crime, you get broken families, you get a perpetuation of the cycle of poverty, dreams get crushed, the will of someone to be somebody in this world is crushed.....and what do we as a society want to accomplish? We want people not to starve or be homeless, but as people we have more needs than just those things working doing a good job, helping out being a contributing member of society, that feels good, that makes a person feel proud.....but oh well the system hasn't worked for a while we'll just wait until it gets so bad that we HAVE to do something different. It's a shame.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

..... and it's entirely the government's fault. A bunch of lazy politicians, too lazy to actually write laws that work and make sense. Instead, putting a band-aid on everything just like they treat every other issue. People will take what's given to them. You give them something for free, they'll continue to hold out their hand.

Politicians and their half-baked ideas are the scourge of humanity, and have caused many of the societal problems we face today. It's most likely a universal problem, though, and not limited to the US.

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Well it's politicians, it's human behavioral psychology, it's a lot of things and everyone suffers because of it. The impoverished are robbed of their dignity and their work ethic, they're punished if they attempt to improve their station in life (at least from the start they're punished by welfare benefits being taken away, it's not an insurmountable task but it's more difficult to do the whole pick yourself up by the boot straps deal because of that), tax payers flip the bill for this and there's much better things to spend money on (when we're talking about young, able bodied people who have resigned from attempting to work), you get higher crime, you get broken families, you get a perpetuation of the cycle of poverty, dreams get crushed, the will of someone to be somebody in this world is crushed.....and what do we as a society want to accomplish? We want people not to starve or be homeless, but as people we have more needs than just those things working doing a good job, helping out being a contributing member of society, that feels good, that makes a person feel proud.....but oh well the system hasn't worked for a while we'll just wait until it gets so bad that we HAVE to do something different. It's a shame.

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This right here is the key element in why I insist the government is entirely to blame.

John Doe gets $1,000/month in welfare benefits. He wants to improve in life, so he gets a job which pays him $1,050/month. The government promptly rules that John is ineligible for any further help, so John is left with the same income, only now he has the related expenses in order to hold down his job. He then decides it's not worth it, and he's better off living off welfare.

It's a shitty system, baked up by lazy politicians who can't be bothered to tweak programs in such a way that they help people instead of hurting them.

Seriously guys I don't want to unnecessarily offend you, but you are so missing the point. This is about a UK tragedy that happened precisely people were valued less than private companies making a huge profit. This is what happens when people are conditioned to think of people in different circumstances than them as being fundamentally different "a burden". The fact is that the biggest demographic in the UK that rely on some kind of welfare are THE WORKING POOR. This is exaggerated further in London, and then again in a borough like Kensington and Chelsea, where foreign billionaires, many of whom don't actually occupy the properties they have invested in, drive the prices up to such an unrealistic level that the people who clean their apartments, the plumbers who install their bathrooms, the bus drivers who ferry the tourists around etc can not afford to rent a property for £4000 a month and so live in social housing. They are working. The rent is partly subsidized by the Government to make it affordable.


Then consider against this that the Government has been pushing an austerity agenda that has seen huge cuts to public services so that people working as civil servants, probation officers, court admin, fire and hospital service personnel have had not only their wages cut year on year, but their ability to respond. So the government this week who found billions for the Queen and some former protestant terrorists in Northern Ireland allowed councils to cut fire safety regulations and use inflammable cladding. They cut fire fighters wages and the former Tory mayor of London laughed about cutting the amount of fire engine vehicles etc, and now it turns out the council had millions of pounds of tax payers money in the bank. On top of that virtually every single social housing high rise building they have tested around the country is turning out to have used dangerous cut price materials to save money, have no sprinklers and often blocked or unusable fire escapes.

It's enormous. It is the result of an ideology in which the Queen and the MPS get a pay rise and ordinary working people are told there is no money. No money for doctors or nurses or veterans or the disabled or teachers or schools or hospitals, but millions of pounds of tax payers money in private developers pockets and bank accounts who could not even be bothered to use materials for a few pounds extra that would resist fire.

It has nothing to do with Welfare and that is why being worried about the property rights of some rich bastard who does not want the working poor living NEXT DOOR is so offensive. In the grand scheme of things it matters little and they have no right to dictate such nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Tito, please answer these questions.
a) Would you like to have bum sex with a man?

b) Would you be happy with a council estate neighbor who has 6 children, no father figure, and smokes weed while claiming disability despite having nothing more than a cooked up doctors paper while you dutifully go to work everyday, have no kids and are a dedicated partner?

Please get off the fence and answer these pertinent questions truthfully. Same to you Beanz.

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I will answer for you even though neither has fuck all to do with the thread.

a) Not really...but


What does that have to do with anything? Gay people don't want to bum you or other straight people, and many probably have no wish to bum each other.(most lesbians for starters) Plenty of straight men bum their wives and lovers and they have other options, so using your rational they must be even more "abnormal". Many straight men will stick their Johnson in anything including water melons, chopped meat and apple pie so are they "abnormal".


b) I have had some great neighbours and some truly horrendous ones. The worst were those in privately owned houses and the best were those who lived in Council housing. Who cares? It's quite an offensive post though and I will tell you why. It assumes that they are somehow representative of people living on council estates and the disabled. The vast majority of the disabled in this country are genuine. They have died in large numbers over the last few years because of austerity measures imposed by those who think like you. So much so that I have actually seen a blind person with their guide dog having to fight for their allowance so that they could carry on working. It's beyond callous, and the worry of what is a tiny percentage of shysters ripping off the system has seen scores of genuinely disabled people fucked over. Not only throwing out the baby with the bath water but paying medically untrained American companies to overturn doctors decisions and actually cost the tax payer more in overturned appeal decisions, than the money they could have saved if they simply helped more disabled to work.


I am not going to go into great detail but you have said this for years because you seem to have no genuine understanding of what it's like to be disabled or how dearly most disabled people would love to work.


I feel passionately about this because ATOS an American company, declared me unfit to work and I lost my job in the civil service and then the same American company 6 weeks later ruled that I was fit to work and should receive no help.I found work myself by retraining to be a student support worker and funding the qualifications myself. Technically according to most criteria ( my GP and several consultants) I would be considered disabled, but not according to the company the government use to asses. I don't claim disability and never have.

I am not alone there are many much worse off than me and sweeping generalizations like you used above do not help things.

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Originally Posted by Beanz

Seriously guys I don't want to unnecessarily offend you, but you are so missing the point. This is about a UK tragedy that happened precisely people were valued less than private companies making a huge profit. This is what happens when people are conditioned to think of people in different circumstances than them as being fundamentally different "a burden". The fact is that the biggest demographic in the UK that rely on some kind of welfare are THE WORKING POOR. This is exaggerated further in London, and then again in a borough like Kensington and Chelsea, where foreign billionaires, many of whom don't actually occupy the properties they have invested in, drive the prices up to such an unrealistic level that the people who clean their apartments, the plumbers who install their bathrooms, the bus drivers who ferry the tourists around etc can not afford to rent a property for £4000 a month and so live in social housing. They are working. The rent is partly subsidized by the Government to make it affordable.


Then consider against this that the Government has been pushing an austerity agenda that has seen huge cuts to public services so that people working as civil servants, probation officers, court admin, fire and hospital service personnel have had not only their wages cut year on year, but their ability to respond. So the government this week who found billions for the Queen and some former protestant terrorists in Northern Ireland allowed councils to cut fire safety regulations and use inflammable cladding. They cut fire fighters wages and the former Tory mayor of London laughed about cutting the amount of fire engine vehicles etc, and now it turns out the council had millions of pounds of tax payers money in the bank. On top of that virtually every single social housing high rise building they have tested around the country is turning out to have used dangerous cut price materials to save money, have no sprinklers and often blocked or unusable fire escapes.

It's enormous. It is the result of an ideology in which the Queen and the MPS get a pay rise and ordinary working people are told there is no money. No money for doctors or nurses or veterans or the disabled or teachers or schools or hospitals, but millions of pounds of tax payers money in private developers pockets and bank accounts who could not even be bothered to use materials for a few pounds extra that would resist fire.

It has nothing to do with Welfare and that is why being worried about the property rights of some rich bastard who does not want the working poor living NEXT DOOR is so offensive. In the grand scheme of things it matters little and they have no right to dictate such nonsense.

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Well ACTUALLY the thread was started by smashup who compared 9/11 to Grenfell tower and pondered as to why one kept standing and the other collapsed, the other being the WTC.



But the thread was hijacked to talk only about the poor people in 1 event and not a comparison of the two events....IF we're being honest and not playing revisionist history about this, but I suppose I'll be lectured about this response as well.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Beanz

Seriously guys I don't want to unnecessarily offend you, but you are so missing the point. This is about a UK tragedy that happened precisely people were valued less than private companies making a huge profit. This is what happens when people are conditioned to think of people in different circumstances than them as being fundamentally different "a burden". The fact is that the biggest demographic in the UK that rely on some kind of welfare are THE WORKING POOR. This is exaggerated further in London, and then again in a borough like Kensington and Chelsea, where foreign billionaires, many of whom don't actually occupy the properties they have invested in, drive the prices up to such an unrealistic level that the people who clean their apartments, the plumbers who install their bathrooms, the bus drivers who ferry the tourists around etc can not afford to rent a property for £4000 a month and so live in social housing. They are working. The rent is partly subsidized by the Government to make it affordable.


Then consider against this that the Government has been pushing an austerity agenda that has seen huge cuts to public services so that people working as civil servants, probation officers, court admin, fire and hospital service personnel have had not only their wages cut year on year, but their ability to respond. So the government this week who found billions for the Queen and some former protestant terrorists in Northern Ireland allowed councils to cut fire safety regulations and use inflammable cladding. They cut fire fighters wages and the former Tory mayor of London laughed about cutting the amount of fire engine vehicles etc, and now it turns out the council had millions of pounds of tax payers money in the bank. On top of that virtually every single social housing high rise building they have tested around the country is turning out to have used dangerous cut price materials to save money, have no sprinklers and often blocked or unusable fire escapes.

It's enormous. It is the result of an ideology in which the Queen and the MPS get a pay rise and ordinary working people are told there is no money. No money for doctors or nurses or veterans or the disabled or teachers or schools or hospitals, but millions of pounds of tax payers money in private developers pockets and bank accounts who could not even be bothered to use materials for a few pounds extra that would resist fire.

It has nothing to do with Welfare and that is why being worried about the property rights of some rich bastard who does not want the working poor living NEXT DOOR is so offensive. In the grand scheme of things it matters little and they have no right to dictate such nonsense.

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Well ACTUALLY the thread was started by smashup who compared 9/11 to Grenfell tower and pondered as to why one kept standing and the other collapsed, the other being the WTC.



But the thread was hijacked to talk only about the poor people in 1 event and not a comparison of the two events....IF we're being honest and not playing revisionist history about this, but I suppose I'll be lectured about this response as well.

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Uh...Ok


Don't know what happened to the other Grenfell thread. Don't think there is a lot of mileage in comparing the WTC and Grenfell events though.

What toss pot rubbish from a crumpet wanking sod.

Actually I made an error in one of my previous posts. It turns out that it's not virtually every building tested that has failed the fire safety tests. It is actually EVERY building of the 65 checked so far

"Sixty high-rise buildings in 25 local authority areas have failed cladding fire tests, with every sample so far assessed falling short of the safety threshold.
Substandard cladding has been found on social housing across England, from Plymouth, Norwich and Manchester to Sunderland and Stockton-on-Tees.
Last week Theresa May promised an emergency assessment of up to 100 buildings a day, but the alarming results, and the 100 per cent failure rate of the high-priority samples so far, have prompted calls for the testing process to be accelerated....."


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e...test-2shpk0ddw

What is your obsession with this? There are fires everyday in all urban and other areas? What has touched off your activism.so hotly with this? Ffs 79 people??? FUCK!!! 440.Chinese were.just.crushed by faulty construction in Fujian Province and NOT A FUCKING PEEP FROM YOUR ASS. #ChineseLivesMatter

I'M SO VERY VERY SORRY IF MY QUESTION OFFENDS YOU PLEASE DON'T BE ANGRY I'M JUST WONDERING IF THAT IS OK TO DO THESE DAYS

So the "borough councils" they have money due to taxes or what?

Wow