Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
Lewis had the same notice as Vitali for their fight . They were both due to fight on the same bill .
That was Vitalis best performance and he lost . It was Lennox's worst performance and he won in 6 :-\
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by GAME
That was Vitalis best performance and he lost . It was Lennox's worst performance and he won in 6 :-\
simply listing that Vitali lost uncharacteristically glosses over the actual events of the fight, and hids the true nature of the lost.
Simply saying that Vitali lost does not show
1. He lost because of a cut over his eye. The referee called it in.
2. Vitali was leading on all score cards and beating Lewis.
3. Lewis was tiring.
4. When the fight was stopped, it was Vitali who was coming on, after taking a solid uppercut from Lewis and shook it off.
5. General perception is that if Vitali did not suffer the cut, he would have beaten Lewis.
6. This general perception lead to an overwhelming demand for a rematch.
7. Lewis in reaction to this demand for a rematch, RETIRED.
Its amazing that simply saying Vitali lost, hides the aboveforementioned facts.
Using that line, I can say that, Holyfield battled to a draw with Lewis in their first fight. :-X
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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1. He lost because of a cut over his eye. The referee called it in.
The cut was caused by Lewis ' punches
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2. Vitali was leading on all score cards and beating Lewis
.Many fighters have been ahead on the before losing . Look at Byrd -Vitali
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3. Lewis was tiring.
Vitali was tiring more . The 6th round showed Vitali was spent but Lewis was getting better
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4. When the fight was stopped, it was Vitali who was coming on, after taking a solid uppercut from Lewis and shook it off.
Lewis won the 6th and was one round away from stopping Vitali but the dr saved him
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5. General perception is that if Vitali did not suffer the cut, he would have beaten Lewis.
Thats life , he got beat fair and square . People who know their boxing knew that Lewis would have gone onto win
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6. This general perception lead to an overwhelming demand for a rematch.
Lewis didnt need one cuz he won . Nothing to gain
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7. Lewis in reaction to this demand for a rematch, RETIRED.
He beat everyone he ever fought . Why rematch a guy hed beaten when he was at his worst . Vitali retired at the prospect of fighting a Lewis victim .
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by GAME
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1. He lost because of a cut over his eye. The referee called it in.
The cut was caused by Lewis ' punches
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2. Vitali was leading on all score cards and beating Lewis
.Many fighters have been ahead on the before losing . Look at Byrd -Vitali
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3. Lewis was tiring.
Vitali was tiring more . The 6th round showed Vitali was spent but Lewis was getting better
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4. When the fight was stopped, it was Vitali who was coming on, after taking a solid uppercut from Lewis and shook it off.
Lewis won the 6th and was one round away from stopping Vitali but the dr saved him
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5. General perception is that if Vitali did not suffer the cut, he would have beaten Lewis.
Thats life , he got beat fair and square . People who know their boxing knew that Lewis would have gone onto win
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6. This general perception lead to an overwhelming demand for a rematch.
Lewis didnt need one cuz he won . Nothing to gain
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7. Lewis in reaction to this demand for a rematch, RETIRED.
He beat everyone he ever fought . Why rematch a guy hed beaten when he was at his worst . Vitali retired at the prospect of fighting a Lewis victim .
:coolclick: exactly
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
Lennox Lewis is an all time great, vitali was a good fighter but his achievements doesn't come close. As game said, Lennox at his worse was still capable of beating Vit in his prime, score cards or not, both men were tiring, Vitali was just physically unable to withstand Lennox's punches (and couldn't get out of their way either, which is vital against a heavy puncher).
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Originally Posted by BigMix27
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Originally Posted by porkypara
Lewis was almost 40 years old,being boxing since he was a kid,beat the best fighters around at the time,very very rich and he already beat Vitley once.
From Lewis point of view what was the point of a rematch.
If you think the above offers any scintilla of credibility for Lewis ducking out of a highly demanded rematch against Vitaly, you are extremely wrong.
Do you remember when Lewis decided to give up the IBF belt rather than fight Byrd. Remember his excuse, "Its not a fight the Public wants?" (But we all know that he was scared that Byrd outslick him and win him on points). Now this same two faced Lewis when face with a fight the public wants, in which this fight is against someone who could legitimately beat him; Lewis then said, he has nothing left to accomplish as a heavy weight?
Nothing left to accomplish as a heavyweight?
Can you imagine is Joe Frazier had retired after beating Mohammed Ali?
Can you imagine if Ward had retired after beating Gatti?
Can you imagine if Bowe had retired after beating Holyfield?
Yes, Lewis had nothing left to accomplish as a heavyweight
EXCEPT, remove lingering doubts as to whether he was really better than Vitaly. And Lewis did not remove these lingering doubts, hence only
suspicion of cowardice remains in place.
Lennox didn't even have to fight Vitali in the first place, he could have retired after the Holyfield fights, he belonged in a different era to klitchko. Why the hell should he carry on fighting, if he fought Klitchko 10 times, and vitali managed to win the last one when Lennox was 50, what the hell would that prove?
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by BigMix27
Simply saying that Vitali lost does not show
1. He lost because of a cut over his eye. The referee called it in.
2. Vitali was leading on all score cards and beating Lewis.
3. Lewis was tiring.
4. When the fight was stopped, it was Vitali who was coming on, after taking a solid uppercut from Lewis and shook it off.
5. General perception is that if Vitali did not suffer the cut, he would have beaten Lewis.
6. This general perception lead to an overwhelming demand for a rematch.
7. Lewis in reaction to this demand for a rematch, RETIRED.
A cut caused by a fist, that leads to fight being stopped is a TKO win. The argument that Vitali was giving Lewis a hard fight and would of won, but for the cut, is the equivalent of saying Holmes was giving Tyson all he could handle, and if it was them three knockdowns he would of beaten Iron Mike; or if Spinks was not caught by them big punches he would of beaten Tyson; or Grant was doing great against Lewis, if you take out the knockdowns; or Frazier was planning to get knockdown half a dozen times by Foreman, so he could lead him into a false sense of security or Duran was on the verge of beating Hearns but for... ;)
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
i keep telling people that lewis deserves some credit. I mean anytime you get knocked out and come back to knock out your opponent shows heart. Even today rockman may not be the most fantastic fighter ever but he is at the top and is a dangerous opponent with power. Lewis wasn't scared and came back in the rematch to take care of business.
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by Britkid
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Originally Posted by BigMix27
Simply saying that Vitali lost does not show
1. He lost because of a cut over his eye. The referee called it in.
2. Vitali was leading on all score cards and beating Lewis.
3. Lewis was tiring.
4. When the fight was stopped, it was Vitali who was coming on, after taking a solid uppercut from Lewis and shook it off.
5. General perception is that if Vitali did not suffer the cut, he would have beaten Lewis.
6. This general perception lead to an overwhelming demand for a rematch.
7. Lewis in reaction to this demand for a rematch, RETIRED.
A cut caused by a fist, that leads to fight being stopped is a TKO win. The argument that Vitali was giving Lewis a hard fight and would of won, but for the cut, is the equivalent of saying Holmes was giving Tyson all he could handle, and if it was them three knockdowns he would of beaten Iron Mike; or if Spinks was not caught by them big punches he would of beaten Tyson; or Grant was doing great against Lewis, if you take out the knockdowns; or Frazier was planning to get knockdown half a dozen times by Foreman, so he could lead him into a false sense of security or Duran was on the verge of beating Hearns but for... ;)
I agree with you, if one fighter has a face like mush then it usually means that the other guy has been very effective. Surely Henry Cooper was far closer to beating Ali than Vitali was to beating Lewis. Ali had been knocked down, saved by the bell and then saved by Angelo Dundee who conveniently found some loose stitching in Ali's gloves that gave him more priceless time to recover. And even then, if Cooper hadn't suffered such a bad cut then he may well have gone on to stop Ali.
What is interesting though is that in the rematch again Henry gave Ali a rough ride but again his face split apart, and I have little doubt that if Lewis would have rematched Vitali he could bust him open just as easily again............
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by BigMix27
1 Tyson willingly fought rematches against Ruddock, and Holyfield. All of these fights were difficult for Tyson, and in all of them, Tyson stood a good chance of losing.
2. Lewis fought rematches against McCall and Rahman. But on considering McCall and Rahman in comparison with Lewis we see that McCall and Rahman were no where in the same league as Lewis, and Lewis should have beaten them promptly in the initial fight. But since he lost his first matches against them due to neglegience on his part, he willingly fought rematches, knowing that he would have beaten them if he took these rematches a little more serious.
But here is where the trouble comes in.
The only rematch that Lewis knew that he could possibly loose was against Vitaly.
The only heavyweight rematch that Lewis knew that the public demanded was a fight against Vitaly.
What did Lewis do with all these weighty factors.
1. A huge demand.
2. an unsatisfying outcome of the first fight.
Lewis knowing the above factors willingly retired.
I don't know how you guys want to spin it, but it was a total act of cowardice.
Now comparing that to Tyson and Holyfield. I have yet to see Tyson and Holyfield willingly retire instead of pariticipating in a fight that the public was demanding.
you raise some good points. ruddock at the time was the most feared man in the division. tyson took him on twice in non title fights and won conclusively. in hindsight it would have been good to see lewis face vitali in a rematch just for closure.(an im a big lewis fan). i dont lewis can be blamed for rematches against rahman and mccall. mccall was for the vacant title and lewis was rated 1 at the time by the WBC. in the rahman case too lewis went for a rematch because the WBC and IBF belts were both on the line and there wasnt much clamour for a match against john ruiz then the WBA champion. it seems in lewis case that it was more circumstances than anything
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by Snakey
Tyson only fought a rematch against holyfield coz he lost and lewis revenged all of his losses ;)
Lennox Lewis revenged all of his losses (only 2 of them - considering he retired with only 40-something fights) against Dickhead and Tumbleweed.
Tyson had more heart than Lewis.
I agree that it was a coward act on Lewis. He was scared to even go for the KO against Tyson when he had him walking around dead. Emmanuel Steward almost had to strangle him.
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by drgoodlooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snakey
Tyson only fought a rematch against holyfield coz he lost and lewis revenged all of his losses ;)
Lennox Lewis revenged all of his losses (only 2 of them - considering he retired with only 40-something fights) against Dickhead and Tumbleweed.
Tyson had more heart than Lewis.
I agree that it was a coward act on Lewis. He was scared to even go for the KO against Tyson when he had him walking around dead. Emmanuel Steward almost had to strangle him.
I dont think Tyson had more heart than Lewis . On more than 1 occassion Tyson quit in the ring. Whenever Lennox had to test his grit against Mercer and Vitali , he won
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by GAME
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Originally Posted by drgoodlooking
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Originally Posted by Snakey
Tyson only fought a rematch against holyfield coz he lost and lewis revenged all of his losses ;)
Lennox Lewis revenged all of his losses (only 2 of them - considering he retired with only 40-something fights) against Dickhead and Tumbleweed.
Tyson had more heart than Lewis.
I agree that it was a coward act on Lewis. He was scared to even go for the KO against Tyson when he had him walking around dead. Emmanuel Steward almost had to strangle him.
I dont think Tyson had more heart than Lewis . On more than 1 occassion Tyson quit in the ring. Whenever Lennox had to test his grit against Mercer and Vitali , he won
You're damn right. Tyson was menacing, powerful, quick, solid chin, brilliant finisher, but had little heart as a heavyweight champion. He was a bully, and when the going got tough against someone who wasn't afraid of him he'd sulk and look for a way out. I wouldn't go as far to say he was a coward, as I don't think you can call any man who steps into a ring a coward, but he certainly had less heart than many others.
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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author=GAME link=topic=30545.msg334922#msg334922 Whenever Lennox had to test his grit against Mercer and Vitali , he won
1. Mercer fight was close. Whitaker was ring side and said he thought Mercer won. A rematch would and should have put any questions to rest. Lewis did not give Mercer a rematch.
2. Vitali was beating Lewis, and the fight was stopped on a cut. This was the only reason why Lewis was given the victory. "If it wasn't for the cut....". The public saw and knew that Vitali was winning the fight, and subsequently demanded a rematch, so that some finality could be issued.
Lewis retired as opposed to give Vitali a rematch.
I don't know what you call that, but those two are plain acts of cowardice.
I've never seen Tyson refused a rematch. Ironically, after Tyson got beaten to a pulp by Lewis, Lewis was pushing for a rematch, because all he could see was an easy fight with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Face it, Lewis, while highly skilled, very strategic, is a coward.
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
Tyson was easier to quit. Why? I think because he exerted more energy.
Re: Tyson is better than Lewis in at least one aspect?
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Originally Posted by BigMix27
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author=GAME link=topic=30545.msg334922#msg334922 Whenever Lennox had to test his grit against Mercer and Vitali , he won
1. Mercer fight was close. Whitaker was ring side and said he thought Mercer won. A rematch would and should have put any questions to rest. Lewis did not give Mercer a rematch.
2. Vitali was beating Lewis, and the fight was stopped on a cut. This was the only reason why Lewis was given the victory. "If it wasn't for the cut....". The public saw and knew that Vitali was winning the fight, and subsequently demanded a rematch, so that some finality could be issued.
Lewis retired as opposed to give Vitali a rematch.
I don't know what you call that, but those two are plain acts of cowardice.
I've never seen Tyson refused a rematch. Ironically, after Tyson got beaten to a pulp by Lewis, Lewis was pushing for a rematch, because all he could see was an easy fight with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Face it, Lewis, while highly skilled, very strategic, is a coward.
Whiticker would say that as he is a biased yank . Lewis owned Mercer
As for the Vitali fight . Punches caused the cut . Are you suggesting that it should have been declared a NC cuz Vitali couldnt continue . If someoen batters you to the point where you cant continue , you lose . It was fair and square . Vitali said it was a clash of heads at the time showing his bitter and immature nature . He proved himslef as a sore loser . Lewis - a pure winner , even on his worst night
Btw if Lewis was a coward what does that say about every guy he beat ?
