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Sports evolve and so do the participants in that sport. At first, not many people had an answer for Brazilian Jui Jitsu. Now, people train to defend against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by P.G.H Angel Eyes
Royces style is one of strategy and positioning more than brute force....Thus, I really don't think that his prime had a lot to do with it.
Why not Chuck?Quote:
Originally Posted by brad4dboxer
hats off to hughes and gracie dam did you see that dudes arm after the arm bar. kind of felt ughes would win gracies been gone for too long, people might ssay this or that but had this fight taken place in 1992-93 gracie wins, hughes could not beat any version of shamrock
Gracie would never have taken Hughes, even in his prime. Neither would Shamrock. His prime is when fighters had no ground game.
The Gracies helped form UFC to show off their re-invented martial art. I don't think they ever imagined so many fighters cross breeding martial art styles. I like Gracie but his style never evolved. His kicks looked silly. And we can't talk about age either because only 39. Coutour was older than that.
And Gracie never retired. He's been fighting in pride and other events. Actually, he hasn't fought competitivley much at all compared to Hughes. His record is 13-3-3, and that's a life time record.
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Originally Posted by tuckwopat
The second time Gracie and Shamrock squared up {UFC 3 or 4}, it was a draw. And if todays scoring was in place, Shamrock would have won. He headbutted Gracies face into hamburger.
All props to Hughes. He might not be the best mechanically, but he is ruthless, and has more will than most. He is a beats. All that aside, I don't think he wants any of Chuck Lidell though. Chuck is the one guy who can take anyone out with one shot. As confident as I am with my own skills, I still wouldn't want to meet Lidell in a dark alley with him pissed off. I'd have to pick up a stick, or brick.
watch the fight right here. (unless they take it down.)
http://youtube.com/results?search=hu...&search=Search
Hughes is mechanically awesome. He was an all american wrestler, and he doesn't fight with ruthless abandon. Liddell is good, but he out weighs Hughes by a good bit. They fight in different weight classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknowndonor
Hughes is technical, and I wasn't implying that he wasn't. I've just seen him get into positions he shouldn't, but because of will, and brute strength, he got out. He doesn't at all fight wreckless. Sorry if my post misled what I was saying. As far as him against Chuck, I was just responding to what someone else posted. They said Chuck vs Hughes. Chuck is a little big for Hughes, correct. Chuck could almost fight at heavy. Chuck looks smaller muscle wise than alot of guys he fights, but he's a big guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckwopat
Like I said, this was just a showcase for Hughes just like Shamrock vs. Ortiz was. And Gracie was never the same after the second Shamrock fight. If somebody like Sakuraba and others can beat Gracie then there was no reason why Matt Hughes wouldn't, now I would like to see Matt Hughes away from the reality TV and move up in weight and try to win at the other divisions. Because Matt Hughes really got on my nerves in the buildup to this fight with the trash talking and etc. I really want him to be humbled right now. If he says the UFC has evolved so much since then why doesn't he fight 4 fights in one night against people the size of Silva and Arlovski matter of fact why not fight Arlovski after fighting 3 fights in the same night. For as much shit as Hughes talked about Gracie he wouldn't ever be able to come close to accomplishing the things Gracie did and has done.
::**Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
Taught? sounds like you where trying to type like Rocky Balboa... :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
hey, yo, Oh Woahabsolutly ;)
Ultimately, the method of Gracie's madness is in no way shape or form as effective today as it was yesterday, thats what you seen in the fight. Royce did the whole world of mma a favor by reminding us of what a ground game can do for you as a fighter. But you can't compare the people from 10+ years ago to those competing now, it's apples and oranges. Kazushi Sakuraba is a fantastic fighter, one of the most versatile I've ever seen and thats why he beat Royce and every other Gracie he fought - he had an answer for Royce in every situation. And in Kazushi's organization (Pride), they still host tournaments where you fight 3 bouts in one evening. Their upcoming open weight grand prix will be setup like that I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
Bottom line he was great in his own time, but Gracie is irrelevant in todays mixed martial arts. If he can't beat Matt Hughes what do you think happends when he goes to Japan and fights the best in the world?
BTW Matt hughes is 5'9 if you expect him to move up to 200lbs you're smoking that crack rock again :)
Matt Hughes usually weighs in a around 169 pounds. Arlovski weighs about 240 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starr
The sport isn't even close to being the same as it used to be. Back then there were no time limits, so Royce could hold and grapple on the ground pretty much as long as he could and wanted. All those big guys that Royce was facing back then then were good fighters, but they only had one dimension of fighting. If they went to the ground, they were usually clueless.
Royce was tough to fight multiple fights in a night, but that's what the sport was. Lots of fighters did that. And he wasn't fighting true MMA fighters. If he started his career today, there's no way that he or any other fighter could make it through 3 or 4 fighters of a Hughes or Arlovski caliber in a single night and not be completely broken apart.
If Gracie was so sure of his skills and toughness, why didn't he just go ahead and fight Arlovski or Silva. Why not? Cause that would be a broken back and punctured lung.
Been done ;) I'm just saying that Hughes has no place talking smack about Gracie like he was doing. He made it sound like he could do all that he did and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by raleights
I'm saying that Gracie fought the best that era had to offer, regardless of the weight of them. And for Hughes to say the things he was saying, making it sound like he could do it too? I'm saying that he won't come close to going what Gracie did. What Gracie did was fight the best that his era of MMA offered no matter the weight. And I'm saying that Hughes will never be able to do that today(fight the best no matter the weight division) so that he has no reason to try to talk like he could.Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckwopat
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I'm saying that Gracie fought the best that era had to offer, regardless of the weight of them. And for Hughes to say the things he was saying, making it sound like he could do it too? I'm saying that he won't come close to going what Gracie did. What Gracie did was fight the best that his era of MMA offered no matter the weight. And I'm saying that Hughes will never be able to do that today(fight the best no matter the weight division) so that he has no reason to try to talk like he could.
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Hughes would have ran through most of Gracie's prime competition like butter. There really was no MMA in Gracie's prime. They weren't mixing their martial arts very much. It almost wasn't even the same sport.
I hate the ego of the Gracies. MMA owes a lot to brazilian jiu jitsu, but knowing how to grapple, box, and understanding muay thai is just as important. If you only knew jiu jitsu coming into an MMA fight, you'd be at a disadvatage.
Hell, Bruce Lee should get more credit for being one of the first people to popularize the idea of mixing martial arts. (jeet kune do)