Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardrock
Ali is a great fighter.
I know who Joe Lewis is, but I haven't seen much of his fights.
Sugar Ray Robinson fought good fights.
All the others are like really very good, but not the greatest!
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ali
3. Joe Lewis (according to the forum)
4. Lennox Lewis (yes Lennox has a quality list of opponants he beat)
How are you gonna justify Lennox Lewis at number 4, over every other boxer in history, aside from the top three, I'd love to hear this.
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I can maybe see someone arguing that Louis is a better HW than Ali (though I'd think they were wrong), but I can't even see the argument that Marciano is. If they fought head-to-head, do you truly think Marciano would be anything but dominated?
Marciano was 49-0-0 beat the best his era had to offer
Ali was great but hell put him head to head with any of the super heavyweights and he would have a HELL of a time....Lennox Lewis would be tough for him, Vitali, Wladimir, even Shannon Briggs would be tough for Ali....be real about it.
The question didn't ask for head to head comparison but still I think Marciano would give Ali a very very tough fight
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I can maybe see someone arguing that Louis is a better HW than Ali (though I'd think they were wrong), but I can't even see the argument that Marciano is. If they fought head-to-head, do you truly think Marciano would be anything but dominated?
Marciano was 49-0-0 beat the best his era had to offer
Ali was great but hell put him head to head with any of the super heavyweights and he would have a HELL of a time....Lennox Lewis would be tough for him, Vitali, Wladimir, even Shannon Briggs would be tough for Ali....be real about it.
The question didn't ask for head to head comparison but still I think Marciano would give Ali a very very tough fight
Im not sure how shannon fits in with the equation but definately rocky and lennox are up there
I'd say rocky in the top five..
Depending on the arguement all layed out on the table against others..I put lennox either side of the top 5 either 5 or slightly below.. I truely believe he is wayy underrated..
Peace
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I can maybe see someone arguing that Louis is a better HW than Ali (though I'd think they were wrong), but I can't even see the argument that Marciano is.  If they fought head-to-head, do you truly think Marciano would be anything but dominated?
Marciano was 49-0-0 beat the best his era had to offer
Ali was great but hell put him head to head with any of the super heavyweights and he would have a HELL of a time....Lennox Lewis would be tough for him, Vitali, Wladimir, even Shannon Briggs would be tough for Ali....be real about it.
The question didn't ask for head to head comparison but still I think Marciano would give Ali a very very tough fight
prime ali would be too slick and his jab keep pumping in his face would cause lewis problems remember bruno lewis ?? well would be like that comfortable ud for ali vitali maybe he would give ali bit of run for his moeny but still ud for ali wlads chin is too weak tko late for ali and no not briggs he is overrated only time i see him perform good is against lewis and he still got stuffing beat out of him
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
I don't know who's record your going by but last time I checked On Ray Robinsons he hols wins over...
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Saervo
Sammy Angott
Jake La Motta
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Chuck Taylor
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Luc Van Dam
Randy Turpin
Rocky Grazino
Gene Fullemer
Carmen Bassilio...to name a few that is DAMN IMPRESSIVE COMPETITION!!!!!
Throw in some more very good fighters and of course a few no bodies but he also fought more often then most guys too
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
I don't know who's record your going by but last time I checked On Ray Robinsons he hols wins over...
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Saervo
Sammy Angott
Jake La Motta
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Chuck Taylor
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Luc Van Dam
Randy Turpin
Rocky Grazino
Gene Fullemer
Carmen Bassilio...to name a few that is DAMN IMPRESSIVE COMPETITION!!!!!
Throw in some more very good fighters and of course a few no bodies but he also fought more often then most guys too
not to mention he was fighting a lot of these guys within weeks of each other.
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
I don't know who's record your going by but last time I checked On Ray Robinsons he hols wins over...
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Saervo
Sammy Angott
Jake La Motta
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Chuck Taylor
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Luc Van Dam
Randy Turpin
Rocky Grazino
Gene Fullemer
Carmen Bassilio...to name a few that is DAMN IMPRESSIVE COMPETITION!!!!!
Throw in some more very good fighters and of course a few no bodies but he also fought more often then most guys too
Henry Armstrong was past his prime, and way smaller than Robinson, but besides him who can compare with Foreman, Frazier, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, and Floyd Patterson? Thats at least 5 guys in the top 20 heavyweights ever. He lost to Holmes, but that would be 6, and 3 possible four guys in the top 20 best fighters ever (Frazier, Foreman, Moore, possible Holmes). He also fought Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, Mildenberger, Folley, Quarrey, Bugner, Wepner, Lyle, Shavers, Spinks, and even Berbick was a pretty good fighter back then.
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Its hard to say Robinson never fought the competition that Ali fought, but he fought more guys and won more fights percentage wise.
I don't know who's record your going by but last time I checked On Ray Robinsons he hols wins over...
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Saervo
Sammy Angott
Jake La Motta
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Chuck Taylor
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Luc Van Dam
Randy Turpin
Rocky Grazino
Gene Fullemer
Carmen Bassilio...to name a few that is DAMN IMPRESSIVE COMPETITION!!!!!
Throw in some more very good fighters and of course a few no bodies but he also fought more often then most guys too
Henry Armstrong was past his prime, and way smaller than Robinson, but besides him who can compare with Foreman, Frazier, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, and Floyd Patterson? Thats at least 5 guys in the top 20 heavyweights ever. He lost to Holmes, but that would be 6, and 3 possible four guys in the top 20 best fighters ever (Frazier, Foreman, Moore, possible Holmes). He also fought Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, Mildenberger, Folley, Quarrey, Bugner, Wepner, Lyle, Shavers, Spinks, and even Berbick was a pretty good fighter back then.
OK that statement right there says your knoweldge of the sport back then is limited....do some homework on Bassilio, Fullemer, Gavilin ,Turpin,Zivic, Olsen we will just keep it to those right now...and boxrec does not count....
As for best days Archie was past his...Wepner was tough but a wipping boy for all...and P4P not as tough as LaMotta...
The fact you would even throw Leon Spinks name in there is a joke...his whole career was his win over ALI....
I am as big a fan you could possibly get of both and IMO they rank 1 and 2 all time but Ray was just a bit better.....
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I can maybe see someone arguing that Louis is a better HW than Ali (though I'd think they were wrong), but I can't even see the argument that Marciano is. If they fought head-to-head, do you truly think Marciano would be anything but dominated?
Marciano was 49-0-0 beat the best his era had to offer
Ali was great but hell put him head to head with any of the super heavyweights and he would have a HELL of a time....Lennox Lewis would be tough for him, Vitali, Wladimir, even Shannon Briggs would be tough for Ali....be real about it.
The question didn't ask for head to head comparison but still I think Marciano would give Ali a very very tough fight
Lyle, with all due respect....Ali, in his prime, would punish any of the fighters you mentioned. Ali would make them look incredibly slow footed and pick them apart all night. As for the strength of the current super heavyweights...Ali took the best Foreman, Sheavers, Liston, and Frazier had to give. I personally don't highly rate the current group of heavyweights at all. As for Lewis...a very good fighter...but Ali is unlike anyone he has come close to fighting. Before he was banned from fighting...Ali was a thing of beauty...an incredible athlete.
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Ali had trouble with guys other people didn't.....Ken Norton??? ANY big punchers just BLASTED him.
Based on the SIZE aspect which EVERYONE brings up Ali would have trouble with those guys...Ali moved really well what about Riddick Bowe?
Bowe, Lewis, Briggs, The Klitschko's they are all HUGE compared to Ali and they are all athletic enough to cut off the ring and Ali wouldn't KO all of them or out point all of them but historically he's one of the greatest boxers ever.
Now I am not saying Ali sucks but I am saying that now'a'days we have bigger boxers with different skills and since more people have learned about what Ali did more people know how to beat that style.
With the size thing, well it doesn't only apply to Dempsey and Marciano is all I am saying.
A good fighter is a good fighter and how they do in their era vs THE BEST FIGHTERS is how good they are historically
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ali had trouble with guys other people didn't.....Ken Norton??? ANY big punchers just BLASTED him.
Based on the SIZE aspect which EVERYONE brings up Ali would have trouble with those guys...Ali moved really well what about Riddick Bowe?
Bowe, Lewis, Briggs, The Klitschko's they are all HUGE compared to Ali and they are all athletic enough to cut off the ring and Ali wouldn't KO all of them or out point all of them but historically he's one of the greatest boxers ever.
Now I am not saying Ali sucks but I am saying that now'a'days we have bigger boxers with different skills and since more people have learned about what Ali did more people know how to beat that style.
With the size thing, well it doesn't only apply to Dempsey and Marciano is all I am saying.
A good fighter is a good fighter and how they do in their era vs THE BEST FIGHTERS is how good they are historically
That's all fine and good, but you obviously also have to take into consideration how good "THE BEST FIGHTERS" of these guys' era were. The best fighters of Ali's era (and Ali's overall competition) was a million times better than most of who was around for Marciano. I guarantee you Marciano wouldn't have his record if he fought in Ali's era (and not only because he'd lose to Ali).
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Ali had trouble with guys other people didn't.....Ken Norton??? ANY big punchers just BLASTED him.
Based on the SIZE aspect which EVERYONE brings up Ali would have trouble with those guys...Ali moved really well what about Riddick Bowe?
Bowe, Lewis, Briggs, The Klitschko's they are all HUGE compared to Ali and they are all athletic enough to cut off the ring and Ali wouldn't KO all of them or out point all of them but historically he's one of the greatest boxers ever.
Now I am not saying Ali sucks but I am saying that now'a'days we have bigger boxers with different skills and since more people have learned about what Ali did more people know how to beat that style.
With the size thing, well it doesn't only apply to Dempsey and Marciano is all I am saying.
A good fighter is a good fighter and how they do in their era vs THE BEST FIGHTERS is how good they are historically
That's all fine and good, but you obviously also have to take into consideration how good "THE BEST FIGHTERS" of these guys' era were. The best fighters of Ali's era (and Ali's overall competition) was a million times better than most of who was around for Marciano. I guarantee you Marciano wouldn't have his record if he fought in Ali's era (and not only because he'd lose to Ali).
Agreed and that is no dis respect to Marciano
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
That's all fine and good, but you obviously also have to take into consideration how good "THE BEST FIGHTERS" of these guys' era were. The best fighters of Ali's era (and Ali's overall competition) was a million times better than most of who was around for Marciano. I guarantee you Marciano wouldn't have his record if he fought in Ali's era (and not only because he'd lose to Ali).
Hey buddy Walcott, Charles, Moore, LaStarza, and Layne aren't to be denied their place in history either...so Foreman, Frazier, Norton...they were great but you just can't immediately say Ali was the greatest just because he beat them....he lost to Joe and Norton as well, let's not forget it.
I'm never trying to disgrace anyone's place in the history of the sport but you just can't switch eras around like that.....like how would Joe Louis do in Tyson's era....I personally think he'd still be great but what about Tyson in Ali's era??? And what if the Earth stopped rotating.....fun to think about but we'll never know what would happen.
Everyone has their opinions and one of mine is 1. Louis, 2. Marciano, 3. Ali......it won't change, deal with it
Re: Who is the greatest (Ali or Ray Robinson?)
Lewis could not handle speed I know this
