Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by Taeth
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Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Taeth as much as a enjoy your comments I think you are showing your a** on this one. ;)
I don't understand how? I'm saying he's an ATG, and that he beat some good fighters, and he was as complete a package as they came. However because in certain aspects such as speed some guys were still so much more superior than him that they would beat him because of a certain advantage that why he is overrated because he can't beat anyone at middleweight, and Leonard proved that.
Leonard didn't prove crap. Leonard proved that he could wait until Hagler had been through one war to many, throw ineffective, weak shoeshine punches, and steal a fight. In that fight, Hagler beat Hagler. Hagler didn't fight a smart enough or active enough fight, and he still won the fight IMO by one or two rounds. He let Ray steal that one, bottom line, and if they would have fought before those battles and age took the edge of Hagler, Ray would only proved the could count light on the ceiling.
But as usual, Taeth, you have a good point point mixed into your madness. Hagler, though he had twice the heart, would have probably lost to Jones, prime for prime, though I would pick him to beat Hopkins.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by SeanE
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Originally Posted by Taeth
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Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Taeth as much as a enjoy your comments I think you are showing your a** on this one. ;)
I don't understand how? I'm saying he's an ATG, and that he beat some good fighters, and he was as complete a package as they came. However because in certain aspects such as speed some guys were still so much more superior than him that they would beat him because of a certain advantage that why he is overrated because he can't beat anyone at middleweight, and Leonard proved that.
Leonard didn't prove crap. Leonard proved that he could wait until Hagler had been through one war to many, throw ineffective, weak shoeshine punches, and steal a fight. In that fight, Hagler beat Hagler. Hagler didn't fight a smart enough or active enough fight, and he still won the fight IMO by one or two rounds. He let Ray steal that one, bottom line, and if they would have fought before those battles and age took the edge of Hagler, Ray would only proved the could count light on the ceiling.
But as usual, Taeth, you have a good point point mixed into your madness. Hagler, though he had twice the heart, would have probably lost to Jones, prime for prime, though I would pick him to beat Hopkins.
Leonard was probably more past it then Hagler was at that time.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
I like Hagler and I think he was a beast.
What bothers me is when people say he's better then Monzon.
Side note: Monzon IMO, is the best Middle ever. Inlcuding better then B-Hop.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I like Hagler and I think he was a beast.
What bothers me is when people say he's better then Monzon.
Side note: Monzon IMO, is the best Middle ever. Inlcuding better then B-Hop.
Who did Monzon beat better than Haglers opposition ??
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Who did Monzon beat better than Hagler opposition ??
I'll tell you who, BUT even then you'll still wont agree.
Cause I can guarantee you some of the names I'll tell you, you won't have a clue of who they are or what they were at that moment in time.
But I'll do it anyway.
As if dethroning the Undisputed Benvenuti wasn't sufficient can you find a better name then the GREAT 'Mantequilla' on Haglers record?
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Who did Monzon beat better than Hagler opposition ??
I'll tell you who, BUT even then you'll still wont agree.
Cause I can guarantee you some of the names I'll tell you, you won't have a clue of who they are or what they were at that moment in time.
But I'll do it anyway.
As if dethroning the Undisputed Benvenuti wasn't sufficient can you find a better name then the GREAT 'Mantequilla' on Haglers record?
Yes i have heard of Benvenuti he was a defensive genious wasn't he that was good win but Thomas Hearns Roberto Duran are still better but not by much.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Who did Monzon beat better than Hagler opposition ??
I'll tell you who, BUT even then you'll still wont agree.
Cause I can guarantee you some of the names I'll tell you, you won't have a clue of who they are or what they were at that moment in time.
But I'll do it anyway.
As if dethroning the Undisputed Benvenuti wasn't sufficient can you find a better name then the GREAT 'Mantequilla' on Haglers record?
Yes i have heard of Benvenuti he was a defensive genious wasn't he that was good win but Thomas Hearns Roberto Duran are still better but not by much.
Both Thomas & Duran where out of their weight class. You should know that.
Benvenuti was a nautral Middle. had been fighting there for years his trilogy with Griffith was great he hadn't lost a title fight at Middle. in 3 yrs and or was working on his 6th defense of the titles.
Thats why I said Benvenuti. If you can find a better fighter then Benvenuti on Haglers record I'll admit I'm wrong here.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
They were still good wins because there both legends and actually thinking about it Nino was pretty good when people always talk about great defensive fighters his name never gets brought up and Hagler never actually beat a great fighter at there own comfortable weight class except few like Mugabi Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
They were still good wins because there both legends and actually thinking about it Nino was pretty good when people always talk about great defensive fighters his name never gets brought up and Hagler never actually beat a great fighter at there own comfortable weight class except few like Mugabi Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter.
Neither Mugabi, Vito or Alan were as good as Benvenuti.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
They were still good wins because there both legends and actually thinking about it Nino was pretty good when people always talk about great defensive fighters his name never gets brought up and Hagler never actually beat a great fighter at there own comfortable weight class except few like Mugabi Vito Antuofermo and Alan Minter.
Neither Mugabi, Vito or Alan were as good as Benvenuti.
Thats what im saying ;)
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
Although ti was stilla gd win for monzon, benvenuti was at the end of his career when he lost those 2 fights to monzon
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by Taeth
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Originally Posted by zhubin
The Leonard fight was as close as they come and could have gone either way. Hagler was one of those fighters that was a nightmare for anyone to fight...Roy Jones included. As far as Toney having a better jaw than Hagler...that must be a joke. Hearns was one of the all time hardest punchers in the sport to go along with his great skill...and Hagler handled him. As far as i'm concerned...Toney fought only one truly great opponent in his career....Roy Jones...and we know what happened there...including Roy making him land on his fat a**. Just because Toney has fought some unskilled stiffs at heavyweight...doesn't mean he has a better chin than Hagler. Marvin fought some of the hardest punchers in the sport...and never embarrassed himself. Also don't forget...Toney is ultimately a defensive fighter...someone who uses the shoulder roll to avoid getting hit...Hagler was a completely different fighter.
Your saying that hearns hits harder than current hardest hitting heavyweight in the world who has hit Toney cleanly? Hagler has foughten some guys who hit hard at middleweight, but you forget that Hearns broke his hand after that first punch that really stunned Hagler, and nobody hits as hard with a broken hand. I am saying purely Hagler wouldn't be able to take Peter's power no way in hell.
Taking a punch from a heavyweight has no real grounds because we are talking about a different weight class, namely middleweight.
Sure, Toney took Peter's best shots but if we do take that seriously into account then we would only have to assume that Toney would never got wobbled at middleweight. However as everyone knows that's simply not the case, Reggie Johnson hurt him badly and knocked him down.
You also have to take into consideration that Toney was a complete fatass at heavyweight, so it would help explain why he had such a good chin. The extra weight definetly helped.
Toney has been hurt at middleweight badly and Hagler has not, the only real time Hagler was visibly hurt the subsequent event which followed was that the other guy broke his hand. I mean, what does that tell you? lol
It may be apparent that P4P Toney may of had the better chin than Marvin Hagler but we can't be sure simply because we have never seen Hagler at another weightclass other than Middeleweight.
The point is, at middleweight Hagler has yet to be put on his ass. Thus the better chin.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
If you can find a better fighter then Benvenuti on Haglers record I'll admit I'm wrong here.
Bennie Brisco and Boogaloo Watts were not far off Benvenuti
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
I don't think he is overrated at all. I think people know his strengths and weaknesses. His strengths were his southpaw stance, boxing skills and then his determination was incredible. he also had nice short punches and had rare physical strength which exceeded his punching power. His power was good, but his physical strength seemed to overwhelm guys. The only fighter I have seen with the Hagler determination is Evander Holyfield. his weakness? Hagler could be a little robotic at times when he was passive and not moving forward. But that was rare. he was a great fighter with a good reach 75 inches and a great chin and almost unbeatable from 1981-1987. The reason the Hearns fight means so much to showing the Hagler greatness is because everything Hagler did well was seen in that fight. He started to almost hate Hearns and his motivation and determination and power and everything came together in that fight for one night. That fight showcases Hagler's best skills. Not his boxing skills since he brawled, but his best skills as a fighter -his determination mainly. In someways it is too bad Leonard beat Marvin when Marvin was slowing down alot and inactive, since it makes people think that if Leonard could beat him any boxer could. Leonard would not have beaten him in 1985 when Hagler was active. yet the young Leonard of 1982 would have outboxed Marvin, but Ray outboxed everyone. Most guys could not have outboxed Marvin except Ray when Marvin was what I consider prime in 1981-1985.
Re: Why does everybody overate Hagler so much on here?
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Originally Posted by X
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Originally Posted by CutMeMick
If you can find a better fighter then Benvenuti on Haglers record I'll admit I'm wrong here.
Bennie Brisco and Boogaloo Watts were not far off Benvenuti
They fall short of Benvenuti still.
