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I eat meat but I fully expect it to be killed humanely. I grew up on a farm and our animals were treated well even if you can't guarantee that when you buy meat.
There's a difference between animals being killed for food humanely and animals painfully slaughtered for fun. Just because it's been done for a long time doesn't make it right. People have been murdering each other for a long time too but if someone killed someone you care about I think you'd be against that.
Don't you think that being killed humanely is something of an oxymoron though, a strange metaphorical healing balm that we use to try and soothe our guilty consciences?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
The end result and intent are the same in all cases, we want this animal to die so that we can gain some pleasure from it, be it food, clothing, entertainment or whatever.
I like to imagine if there was a superior species to us that enslaved us would we differentiate between our captives who fed us well and let us exercise to get us in perfect condition for eating and those captives who just threw us all in a skanky cell together and then took us out and shot us one by one?
To be honest I'd find the former more sinister.
Try to explain that to the chicken living in its own shit stacked on top of 10 other chickens.Im just saying theres alot of inhumane shit going on in the meat industry and no one is being brought up on charges. Out of sight out of mind.....does it really matter if you kill something humanely? Its still dead...I eat meat occasionally, but I dont go around pretending like it died of natural causes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
Why Bilbo are you vegetarian?
Taking pleasure in the pain caused to an animal is different from enjoying a nice roast when the animal is no longer alive.
Humanely killing an animal means killing it as quickly and painlessly as possible. It's not a myth. There are more and less painful ways to die.
Humans eat meat because we're meant to physically. It's difficult especially if you're female to be a healthy vegetarian because we're meant to eat meat.
The same can be said for many carnivorous animals. Killing for fun though - killing for killing is a completely different thing.
I don't wear fur either. I like to think anything I own which is leather came from a cow which was killed humanely for food.
We should differentiate because we'd spend more time alive than being killed especially if it's done humanely by a butcher off the farming property.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
You can buy freerange chickens and nobody ever said they die of natural causes.
Anyway if you don't like animals being killed for food you shouldn't like animals being killed for fun either. It's still not right!
Hopefully this is the end of it. The fucking anna nicole smith story was like a 6 month media marathon. I bet JFK's assassination didn't even get that much air time. Oh well, atleast we can all move on with our lives since we all personally know michael vick and this event really hit home with all of us ::**.
My own sensabilities agree with you entirely. I do eat meat, I will buy leather shoes, sofa's etc but I wouldn't wear fur and I certainly wouldn't get an enjoyment out of watching an animal get tortured and killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
But I grew up in a small urban town where the only prolongoed exposure to animals I've ever had is as pets, and watching nice animated Disney movies where all the little animals have nice personalities and are fluffy and cute.
But not everyone grows up like that. I must admit I don't know Vick's background, I had never heard of him before this thread but I know this has been said about Gerlad McCllelan in the past so I can talk about this as it applies to him even if it may not apply directly to Vick (or may I don't know)
Anyway the G man was brought up in gangs, on the mean streets where violence was commonplace. You fought each other, you might even kill or be killed. There are drugs, gang fights, drive by's, and violent crime. Living in that harsh, violent world it might be just natural to have your animals live in that hash world too. I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying I aprove, it's just all of this violence goes hand in hand.
I just find it ironic that people like Bernard Hopkins, Sugar Ray Robinson, Diego Coralles etc are all revered and respected (and by me too) by most people in this board, their misdemenours excused, yet a guy like Mclellen, and now Vick is labelled as the scourge of the whole earth as they are incomparably evil, without good points and beyond redemption.
Do I think dog fighting, bull fighting, fox hunting etc is cruel, yes I think it's horrible
Do I think it automatically makes anyone who participates in it evil and wicked, no, I don't live in their world and I don't know them personally to judge.
That's all I'm saying, I agree entirely with you in principal, it's just I don't think animal cruelty is the worst crime in the world, contrary to many on here it seems.
I'm not saying Dogfights are right. They are sick if you ask me...I was just pointing out how some animals get special treatment , no one would care if Micheal Vick was fighting roaches, or rats. Pointing out some hypocrisy as I see it...As far as the killing(for food, fun), whatever ,dead is dead. Is it right for you to think your life is worth more than the animal you consume?
I do think animal cruelty is up there with some of the bad crimes. I'm sure there are too many crimes to weigh them up though. I guess that I think of bad crimes being those which seem more physical, unprovoked, involving maiming etc than tax fraud or ripping someone off.
Either this wasn't a big story in Australia or my lack of TV watching has left me completely out of the loop but I don't know anything personal about this guy. I wouldn't recognize him in a picture because I don't follow American football and his name doesn't ring a bell.
I'm not commenting on him so much as what I think of animal torture. If this guy is a role model to kids I just hope that they don't get the impression that it's cool.
Some people are just sadists too. Some people from normal families will be involved in animal torture. I guess with him we can't tell if it's his upbringing or his nature or a combination of both.
As for thinking your life is worth more than the animal's you consume - I'm not completely sure - you have me thinking. To be honest if I had to kill my own food I'd probably stick to seafood mostly.
I'm not sure why I have no problems fishing but couldn't kill a cow. Theoretically a cow is one life for a lot more food so it's almost more ethical but I'd look into those big brown eyes and not be able to do it unless the only other option was starvation. Maybe because I can see the greater intelligence of a cow and I'm not sure a fish would feel pain or loss or heartbreak to the same extent. I guess a fish seems closer to a plant to me?
I did try to go vego once but i ended up getting anaemic and fainting because my active lifestyle pretty much meant I needed meat to stay healthy.
I guess ultimately the food chain is there and it's not my invention so should I commit suicide just because I have to eat to stay alive?
I do think the way something dies is important. I think a painful death is worse. I don't think it's the same thing.
If they wanted to have a say in the matter, they would've became bipedal with thumbs and done something about it by becoming the dominant species of this planet ;D.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Contest
The biggest problem in american (and human society in general) is a denial of what we really are. Censoring certain words on tv or music when everybody knows that they say them on a regular basis in their off camera life. There's almost this sense of guilt for being at the top of the food chain. We can't just do what we want with them but some people go alittle out of the way out of what is responsible action. There's 6.4 billion humans on this planet and over 50% of them live in extreme poverty. Another significant slice is just barely getting by with really low paying jobs.
People wanna worry about the environment and animals but don't give a damn about their fellow man. Yeah there's some fucked up things people do to the envrionment and animals, but when you wake up tomorrow the world is still gonna be there and its not gonna be filled with cute little puppies curing diseases, ending poverty, and making the world a better place for humans. A dog isn't gonna drive you to the hospital after you get messed up by something. It's not gonna start raining successful city plans anytime soon. When a dog attacks a human, what shows up to fix the problem? When a natural disaster hits an area, what shows up to help out? When humans attack other humans, what shows up to fix the problem? People do. There's no hesiatation to save an animal in need but if a person's in trouble "Ah they probably deserved it". "I made it, why can't they?" If everyone could make it on their own and didn't need some kind of generous intervention, the majority of the world would be healthy wealthy and safe but they're not so obviously there's a problem.
Just like not everyone can get lucky and make it on their own, not everyone is in the position to make a difference. I can't make a difference about anything. I don't have the resources to do that. But if you're going to take up a cause, take care of your own species before you villify them and attempt to "save" something else from an unjust situation in the world. I don't lose sleep when something bad happens because i wasn't in the position to prevent or fix it. I can come up with a theory on how it could've been prevented/fixed, but i had no chance of putting it to work. People need help before anything else, and one person or even a lot of people without the means isn't going to fix anything.
I do agree that cruelty to animals happens a lot in 3rd world countries because the level of desperation there is so much higher and the means to do things humanely is less available/feasible. Brought up living in a hovel in some 3rd world diseased area drinking diseased water with a family dying of AIDS I'd probably kill an animal to eat with a rusty spoon and not feel bad about it.
Humans do have a lot of human issues to fix. Not that i think we need to condone animal cruelty in back yards of 1st world countries for fun - especially by wealthy famous people who could afford many other forms of entertainment.
As a football player I am a Michael Vick fan, but I seriously doubt that he was framed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
As for the Peyton Manning comment... bad example because I seriously doubt that Peyton Manning wouldn't participate in this. Sound like OJ's lawyers all over again.
Didn't you see Finding Nemo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
I believe that if Vick wasn't a wealthy man he would be another thug shooting people in the street. Afterall, animals are often the first victims of serial killers.
Pun & Bilbo, I think both of you are making excellent posts. They make for good reading.
In reguards to Vick
i also dont no who his is and aint really bothered i do think what he did was wrong
im not gonna o the quote thing there is too many things to quote on so this post will prob jump from one thing to another so i apologise b4 hand
ok as for the dogs being mistreated b4 the fight this isnt true in some cases dont forget there is a lot ofmoney in these fights(treated badly in the way of being given steroids etc........yes )but as in beaten b4 a fight i dont think that happens in all cases the dogs are extreamly loyal to thier owner and thousands are spent on these dogs but after the fight the loser is killed that not right at all
i think the crime is serious but b4 we start witch hunting thousands of ppl beat and starve thier own kids daily while social serices are too busy to go visit ::**
that should come first !!
the comment about carin less about a fish and more about a cow cus fish dont feel as much pain ???
i used to fish as a child (remember most of the time we take the hook out and let it go!!)hmmmmmmmm that or having a bull shot in the head so we can survive???
if u think it logically id rather have the bull shot
trust me if i had no food (ie third world country ) i would kill a dog fuck me id eat ants if i had to !!! but id eat the dog first
i dont think about where my food comes from wen i eat it i dont care its food but wen someone starts sayin oh but it lived in its own shit etc........
my first thought isnt oh that poor animal its urgh i hope they got it all off!!
im definatly a big meat eater but i wouldnt wanna eat something if it died of natural causes
u dont no what it died of
i grew up in a place where fox hunting was done
let me just say ive never participated
but the cullin of foxes in some of these areas is an absolute must!!
they are not cute little dogs they are wild animals that kill farmers live stock (the same live stock that u want running free and nt in cages )we are talkin about someones livelihood
it just so happens that its one of the things that was turned into a sport yrs and yrs andyrs ago
im not saying its right that one animal is hunted down until it cant breath anymore and ripped apart by 10 others because it isnt
but fox hunting doesnt really bother me i guess because where i was raised for some of my life i was taught foxes as foxes not cute little animals from fox and the hound
i do love animals and dont think killing anything for fun is justified but i dont think it is the crime of the century
kids are being beaten,abused etc.......... a news story comes on about that and we all say ahhhhhhhhhhh thats awful im so glad that isnt my child or how can the mother father allow that etc.........
now an animal gets killed etc......... we start on a big debate to why its such a big crime
People who box make a conscious decision to choose that as a job or as a hobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
The dogs aren't given a choice
...and the boxers aren't PUT DOWN if they lose too many fights or get injured so that is one stupid ass comparison.
Cock fighting is wrong as well and bull fighting where the bull dies is wrong too because there is some bull fighting that goes without killing or injuring the animal not that I watch bull fighting to begin with.
I like eating meat but the circle of life is different than some sick bastard torturing and killing animals....when lions kill gazelles they don't do it for fun, they do it for food.