Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

11-11-2007, 12:22 AM
Violent Demise

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

The thing with bernard was he was a great champion but his greatest wins were people that were at lower weight classes. Oscar started at Superfeatherweight, Tito who was a welterweight and both fought Bernard at his weight middle. Same with Winky best weight was Lightmiddleweight and eh fights Bernard at Lightheavyweight. Sure Hagler did the same thing but Hitman and Duran had success at the weight and Hitman even had success at Crusierweight so he was not a blown up middleweight but all that said Bernard still was a good champion.

People seem to forget that Trinidad and Wright were both favored to beat Hopkins going in there fight with him.
11-11-2007, 12:37 AM
Deanrw

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Hagler could switch from righty to lefty so cleanly, you could not even notice the transition. He was also a master of cutting off the ring and had great footwork.

He was just so great at the little things. People remember the slugger in him when he fought Hearns, but he was actually a masterful boxer. I rate him the best middle ever. He really did have it all.
11-11-2007, 12:40 AM
Wacko3205

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

The thing with bernard was he was a great champion but his greatest wins were people that were at lower weight classes. Oscar started at Superfeatherweight, Tito who was a welterweight and both fought Bernard at his weight middle. Same with Winky best weight was Lightmiddleweight and eh fights Bernard at Lightheavyweight. Sure Hagler did the same thing but Hitman and Duran had success at the weight and Hitman even had success at Crusierweight so he was not a blown up middleweight but all that said Bernard still was a good champion.

You have a point...but it's not all together a 100% accurate one.

Hopkins greatest wins weren't over lighter men. Go through Hopkins list of opponents & count all of the ones that campaigned as middleweights...not just on the rise...but middles. You'll be surprised with researching it yourself instead of going with the general consensus...

I aint saying that to be a smart ass either...I'm being literal.

Hopkins has some fantastic wins over some of the tuffest game at 160lbs...the problem was that during Hopkins rise 160lbs wasn't the flag ship of boxing nor was it as extravagent as were the time frames of Hagler, Hearns, & Leonard. Not Hopkins fault...he did what he did when he was active & should still get props.

Hopkins beat everyone on the list that was in his division & he did it with style...one that many didn't appreciate.

While I see what your'e saying about Tito & Oscar...that's a huge crux that many hold against Hopkins as a rip on his record...but they forget the early part of his career when he was destroying middles coming up & for some reason all the other names become useless.
11-11-2007, 12:49 AM
Mr140

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Yea your right i give you that i was being harsh his wins over Joppy, Holmes, Eastman and even Johnson when Johnson was undefeated and beat him good. So yea i like your points wacko and i can agree with you putting him higher then SRR but no higher then that CC for good input.
11-11-2007, 12:54 AM
artest2000

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

roy jones would have beaten haglar if he had stayed at middle weight. those triple left hooks would have done some damage
11-11-2007, 12:56 AM
Mr140

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

I think i pick Hagler and Monzon over Jones to be fair Jones did not even face enough or achieve enough to compare to them.
11-11-2007, 01:00 AM
Violent Demise

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

I think i pick Hagler and Monzon over Jones to be fair Jones did not even face enough or achieve enough to compare to them.

Hagler and Monzon are considered greater than Jones cuz they stayed at middleweight. But Jones was without a doubt the most gifted of them all. And I would favor him over both Monzon and Hagler.
11-11-2007, 01:01 AM
Mr140

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Well VD your welcome to your opinion and i know that you know that.
11-11-2007, 01:01 AM
Wacko3205

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

Yea your right i give you that i was being harsh his wins over Joppy, Holmes, Eastman and even Johnson when Johnson was undefeated and beat him good. So yea i like your points wacko and i can agree with you putting him higher then SRR but no higher then that CC for good input.

DAMN...my laptop just bottomed out on me for some reason...sorry about that...lost my post.

Anywho...back to what I was saying...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

Yea your right i give you that i was being harsh his wins over Joppy, Holmes, Eastman and even Johnson when Johnson was undefeated and beat him good. So yea i like your points wacko and i can agree with you putting him higher then SRR but no higher then that CC for good input.

:coolclick: #54. Glad you got what I was saying. Often you seem to think that I'm trying to one up you...not the case.

You really really REALLY need to check out his early EARLY career though. While all the wins you listed are goodies...I'm really big on Bernard's wins over fighters like Lipsey (who he KTFO & retired), Daniels (batterd him too), & Steve Frank (one of his 13 or 14 1st round blowouts) that I think many fight fans missed or just forgot about.

Now as far as me putting him over Sugar Ray...as I said...that's subjective...not logical thinking. Like I said...I have Hopkins at 3rd or 4th place...& again...that's a fan talking.

You feel me?
11-11-2007, 01:05 AM
Wacko3205

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

I think i pick Hagler and Monzon over Jones to be fair Jones did not even face enough or achieve enough to compare to them.

Hagler and Monzon are considered greater than Jones cuz they stayed at middleweight. But Jones was without a doubt the most gifted of them all. And I would favor him over both Monzon and Hagler.

I pretty much have to agree with both of you...because you both tipped good points...but I have to go on with Mr140...I'd pick Hagler and Monzon over Jones...but...it's the same reason that I would have picked Calzaghe over Jones's accomplishments.

That's where I agree with what you said VD. Jones was the most gifted...but he fluctuated to much from weight to weight & IWHO he was most successful & dominant at 175lbs.

The Jones that competed at 160lbs in my opinion wouldn't have been able to handle Hagler due to the fact that Hagler's prime & Jones prime were in opposite weight classes...just like saying a prime Jones would have beaten a prime Hopkins...it's hard to gauge because prime for prime they were at different weights.

I love Jones skill level...it's almost unmatched...actually...athletically...it is...or was.
11-11-2007, 01:08 AM
Mr140

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

No wacko i think your right about Bernard being above SRR. SRR best days were at welter and he lost alot at middle weight and Bernard was champion for 10 years and had 20 defences and no matter if his era was lower then some and no matter how i feel you must respect that. And yea i can sound like i think i am all knowing and right when i post which i do not mean to do that the thing with typing really can not hear how the person would say it in real life.
11-11-2007, 01:11 AM
Rotten Apple

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

The thing with bernard was he was a great champion but his greatest wins were people that were at lower weight classes. Oscar started at Superfeatherweight, Tito who was a welterweight and both fought Bernard at his weight middle. Same with Winky best weight was Lightmiddleweight and eh fights Bernard at Lightheavyweight. Sure Hagler did the same thing but Hitman and Duran had success at the weight and Hitman even had success at Crusierweight so he was not a blown up middleweight but all that said Bernard still was a good champion.

People seem to forget that Trinidad and Wright were both favored to beat Hopkins going in there fight with him.

Your 100% right. Trinidad and Wright were favored to beat Hopkins going into there fight. It seems like being the smaller fighter didn\'t matter going into the fight. But once Hopkins beat them all of a sudden they are considered smaller men. Bullshit if you ask me
11-11-2007, 01:16 AM
ICB

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Lets do stats for 4 best Middleweights.

Carlos Monzon's Best Wins.

Rodrigo Valdez x2
Emile Griffith x 2
Nino Benvenuti x2
Jose Angel Napoles
Tony Licata
Denny Moyer
Tom Bogs
Jean Claude Bouttier x2
Bennie Briscoe

Marvin Hagler's Best Wins.

Alan Minter
Fulgencio Obelmejias x2
Tony Sibson
Mustafa Hamsho
Roberto Duran
John Mugabi
Thomas Hearns
Juan Domingo Roldan
Vito Antuofermo

Bernard Hopkins's Best Wins.

Segundo Mercado
John David Jackson
Glen Johnson
Robert Allen x3
Antwun Echols x2
Simon Brown
William Joppy
Felix Trinidad
Syd Vanderpool
Oscar De La Hoya
Howard Eastman
Keith Holmes

Sugar Ray Robinson's Best Wins

Gene Fullmer
Carl Bobo Olson x3 i think.
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Carmen Basilio
Jake Lamotta x2 At Middleweight i think.

Overall Record In Middleweight Title Fights.

Carlos Monzon = 15-0
Marvin Hagler = 13-1-1
Bernard Hopkins = 20-3-1 1 No Contest
Sugar Ray Robinson = 8-6-1

I think i got this all right not sure though but i just done this so everyone can see the stats.
11-11-2007, 01:21 AM
Mr140

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

CC again for the list ice that makes it alot clearer looking at it all at the same time.
11-11-2007, 01:29 AM
Wacko3205

Re: Looking at this Hagler was The Best MW of All Time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

Point 1 : No wacko i think your right about Bernard being above SRR. SRR best days were at welter and he lost alot at middle weight and Bernard was champion for 10 years and had 20 defences and no matter if his era was lower then some and no matter how i feel you must respect that.

Point 1 : Agreed. That's actually the best & right way to look at it...whether you (not just you...all fans) like one fighter better than another...you have to focus on the weight that they did what they did in.

In my opinion...many people hastily right off these great fighters that move up from their standard weight class to a higher spot if they lose.

I hate that. I mean...so they tried to fight out of their normal weight & it cost them. If you can't recognize that some fighters are successful being small & their best attributes are in a smaller frame where they are faster at defense, volume, & accuracey...then that's just being blinded by the facts that you dislike the fighter.

Not just you....fans in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr140

Point 1 : And yea i can sound like i think i am all knowing and right when i post which i do not mean to do that the thing with typing really can not hear how the person would say it in real life.

Hence the reason that I always try to "corny my shit up"...that sounded gross. ;D

It's hard for us to know who means what unless we "know one another"...if you know what I mean.

To many of us get into discussions in which we are just trying to learn...& it ends up coming off as if we are trying to teach.

I love sharing knowledge...but as I said about...it's hard to keep from sounding like you are either preaching or pulling out the knowledge dick & trying to man up one another.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page