Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You do make some good points, but the main gripe I have with your post is that you imply fighters should make decisions that are entirely financial, not considering their own pride, or the good and the evolution of the sport itself.. What reason did Barrera have to fight Pac, he wasn't a big name.. KT and Hatton was different I suppose, because Hatton has always had drawing power and presented Kosta a big payday before he had done anything.. But generally speaking, when top fighters only look to fight established names for the highest available purse all the time, you end up with the dinosaur circuit we have today. It's not good for boxing to deny up and coming talents their chance to prove themselves against established stars.. I don't want to see De la Hoya, Hopkins, Jones JR, Barrera, Mosley, Marquez, Trinidad fight one another for years to come... Who gives a damn. If these guys want to fight on, fight a young up and comer who can carry the torch after you. It's the fact that we as boxing fans don't always see the passing of the guard, which is one of the great aspects of sport. Instead, we end up with these guys milking their careers by fighting one another time and time again in fights that only excite people who don't really follow the sport. You have to remember it's not just about individual paydays, but the potential revenue that the sport can generate in years to come.. Maybe Malignaggi, or Guzman, Valero, etc. could be big PPV stars in a couple years, but we won't find out unless they get a chance to shine against the best. Boxing needs young stars to be born more than it does current ones jumping around in weight to fight each other. Especially when the matchups don't even make sense. What is Pac going to do if he manages to beat Hatton at 140, stay there and unify? If that were the case then great, but why not let them each become unified champions in their respective divisions first? In this case it's because neither want's to lose, since they don't have the time left to work their way back.
Hey p4pking. I can see what your saying but I'll try and respond as best I can. In regards to fighters having a responsibility to generate potential revenue I don't get that at all. Hatton versus Pacquaio would be an absolutely huge fight and I'd go so far to say possibly the biggest ever PPV fight not to include an American fighter, that's a pretty big deal!
Secondly as I said before I completely disagree with those who say this fight won't be competitive. I don't get that at all. They are exactly the same height, the Pacman has a longer reach and Manny is the universally recognised second best fighter in the world whilst Ricky is coming off a loss and probably fallen out of the top 10. I really don't see this being a blowout win for Hatton at all.
I mean come on this is Manny Pacquaio we are talking when he has ever been blown out, early weight drained fights notwithstanding.
As to your comparison with the first Barrera fight it was different. Barrera was in his prime unifying his division. Pacquaio was the number one challenger out there.
Ricky is past that stage now. He's already dominated at 140 and cleaned out the challengers. He picked up a belt at 147 and then challenged himself against the world's best fighter.
To make your comparison true, Barrera would have after losing to Pacquaio, moved back down a division and gone over old ground trying to pick up the belt he'd already won, why would he do that? Of course he didn't. Instead he stayed at superfeatherweight eventually fighting the hottest prospect moving up in weight in J M Marquez. When he lost he didn't attempt to go after a young dog to rebuild his career and title chances, and he certainly didn't go back down to featherweight and go after Chris John he went for the big payday fight and mega event, the rematch with Pacquaio.
I actually think a fight between Ricky and Manny makes good sense. It would generate huge numbers, it would be a very crowd pleasing fight. And as I said at the start of this post it would put a British fighter against a Phillipino fighter on the world's stage in possibly the biggest Non American PPV event of all time.
How can that possibly be bad for boxing?
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
You do make some good points, but the main gripe I have with your post is that you imply fighters should make decisions that are entirely financial, not considering their own pride, or the good and the evolution of the sport itself.. What reason did Barrera have to fight Pac, he wasn't a big name.. KT and Hatton was different I suppose, because Hatton has always had drawing power and presented Kosta a big payday before he had done anything.. But generally speaking, when top fighters only look to fight established names for the highest available purse all the time, you end up with the dinosaur circuit we have today. It's not good for boxing to deny up and coming talents their chance to prove themselves against established stars.. I don't want to see De la Hoya, Hopkins, Jones JR, Barrera, Mosley, Marquez, Trinidad fight one another for years to come... Who gives a damn. If these guys want to fight on, fight a young up and comer who can carry the torch after you. It's the fact that we as boxing fans don't always see the passing of the guard, which is one of the great aspects of sport. Instead, we end up with these guys milking their careers by fighting one another time and time again in fights that only excite people who don't really follow the sport. You have to remember it's not just about individual paydays, but the potential revenue that the sport can generate in years to come.. Maybe Malignaggi, or Guzman, Valero, etc. could be big PPV stars in a couple years, but we won't find out unless they get a chance to shine against the best. Boxing needs young stars to be born more than it does current ones jumping around in weight to fight each other. Especially when the matchups don't even make sense. What is Pac going to do if he manages to beat Hatton at 140, stay there and unify? If that were the case then great, but why not let them each become unified champions in their respective divisions first? In this case it's because neither want's to lose, since they don't have the time left to work their way back.
Hey p4pking. I can see what your saying but I'll try and respond as best I can. In regards to fighters having a responsibility to generate potential revenue I don't get that at all. Hatton versus Pacquaio would be an absolutely huge fight and I'd go so far to say possibly the biggest ever PPV fight not to include an American fighter, that's a pretty big deal!
Secondly as I said before I completely disagree with those who say this fight won't be competitive. I don't get that at all. They are exactly the same height, the Pacman has a longer reach and Manny is the universally recognised second best fighter in the world whilst Ricky is coming off a loss and probably fallen out of the top 10. I really don't see this being a blowout win for Hatton at all.
I mean come on this is Manny Pacquaio we are talking when he has ever been blown out, early weight drained fights notwithstanding.
As to your comparison with the first Barrera fight it was different. Barrera was in his prime unifying his division. Pacquaio was the number one challenger out there.
Ricky is past that stage now. He's already dominated at 140 and cleaned out the challengers. He picked up a belt at 147 and then challenged himself against the world's best fighter.
To make your comparison true, Barrera would have after losing to Pacquaio, moved back down a division and gone over old ground trying to pick up the belt he'd already won, why would he do that? Of course he didn't. Instead he stayed at superfeatherweight eventually fighting the hottest prospect moving up in weight in J M Marquez. When he lost he didn't attempt to go after a young dog to rebuild his career and title chances, and he certainly didn't go back down to featherweight and go after Chris John he went for the big payday fight and mega event, the rematch with Pacquaio.
I actually think a fight between Ricky and Manny makes good sense. It would generate huge numbers, it would be a very crowd pleasing fight. And as I said at the start of this post it would put a British fighter against a Phillipino fighter on the world's stage in possibly the biggest Non American PPV event of all time.
How can that possibly be bad for boxing?
You know what, your actually right on the money about this. It's nothing you can criticize either fighter for, anyone would take the biggest payday. I guess I was just a bit peeved about it at first because I want to see Pacquiao take on Guzman or Juan Diaz, those would be sick fights. I feel Hatton will just be too big and strong for Pac and overwhelm him, I'd love to see Pac win but I doubt he'll be effective at 140.. The guy was fighting at 110 in his twenties. It's not as simple as height and reach, Paul Willaims beats out most HW's in history in that department. I also doubt Manny will drop back down below lightweight, it's just leaves 130 kinda wide open when he had big threats there imo. It's not as though you can hold it against him for wanting to fight a bigger guy in such a huge fight. And it would be awesome if he could carry enough strength and speed up there to fight the same way and beat Hatton silly.. I'd love to see that.
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
CC bilbo, truely argree with your talking about Witter. People saying Hatton is ducking him is just shit, its about money for him now and I know that Witter doesnt fill that void. You made the point clear with the pac fight and I believe it would be good, but its a big jump for manny. But as you said if he can get past the lightweight hurdle,bring Hatton on and let them make some real money.
But he has the biggest fight of his career next, and bloody good luck to him !
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Excellent I've managed to swing all the voters away from El Gamo and in support of my own view.
I really should go into politics.
Sadly though I've never had gay sex in a public toilet so I'd never get any party to back me. :(
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Ok I see this fight has taken one step closer to materialisation and I've also seen that virtually everyone is opposed to this fight.
As such I am hereby adopting my usual roles as Devil's Advocate and the Anti Gamo campaigner and will attempt to defend this fight.
You guys are all talking about this fight as if it's a tiny little flyweight against a huge junior welterweight. IT'S NOT!
Both fighters are EXACTLY THE SAME SIZE!!
Manny measures 5 ft 6.5 inches with a 67 inch reach. Ricky measures 5 ft 6.5 with a 65 inch reach. Advantage Manny!
Both fighters come into their fights weighing over the 10 stone limit. Manny has campaigned at much lower weights but he is not smaller.
It's not much different than B Hop spending all those years at middleweight. See them side by side and he's actually slightly bigger than Joe Calzaghe, Roy Jones Jr and James Toney, great fighters who campaigned at higher weights than him.
Secondly this fight is only in the discussion phase. I'm sure if it does happen Manny will fight first at 135 lbs and see how he copes with the extra weight. If he copes ok then a fight with Ricky is a possibility, if he doesn't then I'm sure the Hatton fight idea would be scrapped. Let's adopt a wait and see approach before castigating everyon involved.
Thirdly, and this is important. Boxers who reach the very top of their game have a RIGHT to fight each other and earn big money. These guys have made sacrifices their entire lives and risked their health, pride, alternative careers etc into making their boxing dreams work.
They certainly shouldn't be begrudged a big payday and the chance to participate in a huge PPV event, and let's face it Hatton vs Pacquiao would be huge!
And now let's consider the alternatives that these guys have. Gamo and his ilk are imploring Ricky Hatton to fight Junior Witter or Paulie Malignaggi to try and reassert himself as king at 140lbs.
F****** hell perlease give me a break! Hatton is near the end of his career. He conquered the junior welterwight division. He defeated the legendary Kosta Tyszu and moved up and won a title at 147 for good measure. He then challenged the world's greatest fighter in one of the biggest British fights of all time!
Where is the motivation to go back down to 140 and fight guys who nobody apart from hardcore fans has even heard of? From Ricky's point of view what is the incentive? To beat guys he's already expected to beat in lowkey fights for half the money he'd get fighting a true p4p legend of the sport. Ask yourselves who would you choose to fight?
Lord know's I'm not a Hatton fan but the guy aimed his sights at being the best fighter in the world. He cleaned up at 140, won a belt at 147 and failed at the last hurdle against Floyd Mayweather. He now has a couple years left in the sport and wants to spend this brief period taking part in mega events against the biggest names in the sport, how can you begrudge him that?
Likewise Manny Pacquiao. Yes he could fight Juan Guzman or Juan Diaz or Valero but ultimately why shouldn't he take the hardest challenge for the most money? Pacquaio has won titles in multiple divisions, he's beaten and knocked out legends of the sport in Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera. Why does he care to add Juan Guzman to his resume?
The only logical opponent out there for Pac is J M Marquez, after that if he wins he's free to aim as high as he pleases and to get the biggest PPV event's he can.
You have to realise that all of these great fighters are at different stages of their careers. They have already conquered divisons and challenged for the top, now their talents have finally got them to the top they want, (and have every right in the world to do so) to take part in the biggest events for the most money.
To criticise Ricky Hatton and say he should turn down a multi million dollar mega showdown with argueably the world's most exciting and popular fighter in favour of fighting Junior Witter at the Doncaster Dome diplays a level of ignorance both in boxing terms and personal human behaviour that just beggers belief.
So in summary, IF this fight takes place it WILL be competitive, both fghters are the same size after all, with the small reach advantage actually going to Manny Pacquaio, and BOTH fighters will have fully justified the right to participate in a huge mega event as they both throughout their careers displayed the courage and ambition to drive themselves to challenge for the very top.
If it happened, I for one would look forward to it.
Well, I can't disagree with any of that. Impressive post Bilbo cc. You SHOULD get into politics :o
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Thanks Kel, cc returned. I'm looking forward to hearing Gamo's view on the subject tomorrow.
Does Ricky still need a fight with Malignaggi in the light of his shitty performance tonight?
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Excellent I've managed to swing all the voters away from El Gamo and in support of my own view.
I really should go into politics.
Sadly though I've never had gay sex in a public toilet so I'd never get any party to back me. :(
gosh bilbo, i wanted to say all the things you said up there. cc
i'm sure though that had the concensus about this fight been reversed you would have defended against it too. ;D
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKisser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Excellent I've managed to swing all the voters away from El Gamo and in support of my own view.
I really should go into politics.
Sadly though I've never had gay sex in a public toilet so I'd never get any party to back me. :(
gosh bilbo, i wanted to say all the things you said up there. cc
i'm sure though that had the concensus about this fight been reversed you would have defended against it too. ;D
Your darn straight I would. If Gamo agrees with me tomorrow though I'll be switching sides again and preparing another speech :author:
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
The only people who think Pacquaio isn't fighting everyone all the way up are the same people who were stupid enough to say the same about Mayweather. Guys like Pacquaio are chasing destiny, I think it takes a lot of balls on both guys parts. Hatton is taking a risk because he is fighting a guy who could still very punch like a mule at 140, but also Pacquiao has great speed and he is southpaw along with being amazingly talented. PAcquaio is taking great risk by going so far above his original weight. Also Hatton is better in a p4p sense than anyone Pacquaio has to fight right now except Marquez whom he is fighting next. Why would people complain about Pacquaio facing MArquez somebody else and Hatton in one year... Also I think HAtton should fight WItter and Maligniwhatever, but this fight is bigger than either of those fights and there is no sin in him taking this fight. Let the warriors be warriors.
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The only people who think Pacquaio isn't fighting everyone all the way up are the same people who were stupid enough to say the same about Mayweather. Guys like Pacquaio are chasing destiny, I think it takes a lot of balls on both guys parts. Hatton is taking a risk because he is fighting a guy who could still very punch like a mule at 140, but also Pacquiao has great speed and he is southpaw along with being amazingly talented. PAcquaio is taking great risk by going so far above his original weight. Also Hatton is better in a p4p sense than anyone Pacquaio has to fight right now except Marquez whom he is fighting next. Why would people complain about Pacquaio facing MArquez somebody else and Hatton in one year... Also I think HAtton should fight WItter and Maligniwhatever, but this fight is bigger than either of those fights and there is no sin in him taking this fight. Let the warriors be warriors.
Personally I would rather see him fight Guzman and Juan Diaz. I would be surprised if he beat both. But that's just a personal preference and I totally understand why Pacqauio would rather fight Hatton. Obviously its better money, there's a bigger reward legacy wise if he beats Hatton cause Hatton's a bigger name and is two weight classes up. Also a loss to Hatton has a bit of a built in excuse (size) that's not really there in the case of Guzman and is only there in a lesser extent with Diaz. So I get it and I'm not outraged in the slightest even though those two fights, Guzman and Diaz, have been two of my most wanted fights for a while now.
Still haven't read Bilbo's post 8)
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
To be honest,I would read all that Bil,but I;m not going tol.95% of the peeps that agreed with you are Hatton fans/nuthuggers:Kel/Tam/Cortez the Killer/ONO(NO doubt I love you guys but it's no coincidence that you agree it's an acceptable fight,you're all huge Hatton fans ;) ;) )
The other few:FrozenSolid and Taeth: ;) ;) ;D Mayweather nuthuggers who think that every post is about Floyd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The only people who think Pacquaio isn't fighting everyone all the way up are the same people who were stupid enough to say the same about Mayweather. Guys like Pacquaio are chasing destiny, I think it takes a lot of balls on both guys parts. Hatton is taking a risk because he is fighting a guy who could still very punch like a mule at 140, but also Pacquiao has great speed and he is southpaw along with being amazingly talented. PAcquaio is taking great risk by going so far above his original weight. Also Hatton is better in a p4p sense than anyone Pacquaio has to fight right now except Marquez whom he is fighting next. Why would people complain about Pacquaio facing MArquez somebody else and Hatton in one year... Also I think HAtton should fight WItter and Maligniwhatever, but this fight is bigger than either of those fights and there is no sin in him taking this fight. Let the warriors be warriors.
Personally I would rather see him fight Guzman and Juan Diaz. I would be surprised if he beat both. But that's just a personal preference and I totally understand why Pacqauio would rather fight Hatton. Obviously its better money, there's a bigger reward legacy wise if he beats Hatton cause Hatton's a bigger name and is two weight classes up. Also a loss to Hatton has a bit of a built in excuse (size) that's not really there in the case of Guzman and is only there in a lesser extent with Diaz. So I get it and I'm not outraged in the slightest even though those two fights, Guzman and Diaz, have been two of my most wanted fights for a while now.
Still haven't read Bilbo's post 8)
I like Ouma's response. I just think there are far greater fights out there for both fighters to take.Simple as that.
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
To be honest,I would read all that Bil,but I;m not going tol.95% of the peeps that agreed with you are Hatton fans/fans:Kel/Tam/Cortez the Killer/ONO(NO doubt I love you guys but it's no coincidence that you agree it's an acceptable fight,you're all huge Hatton fans ;) ;) )
The other few:FrozenSolid and Taeth: ;) ;) ;D Mayweather fans who think that every post is about Floyd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The only people who think Pacquaio isn't fighting everyone all the way up are the same people who were stupid enough to say the same about Mayweather. Guys like Pacquaio are chasing destiny, I think it takes a lot of balls on both guys parts. Hatton is taking a risk because he is fighting a guy who could still very punch like a mule at 140, but also Pacquiao has great speed and he is southpaw along with being amazingly talented. PAcquaio is taking great risk by going so far above his original weight. Also Hatton is better in a p4p sense than anyone Pacquaio has to fight right now except Marquez whom he is fighting next. Why would people complain about Pacquaio facing MArquez somebody else and Hatton in one year... Also I think HAtton should fight WItter and Maligniwhatever, but this fight is bigger than either of those fights and there is no sin in him taking this fight. Let the warriors be warriors.
Personally I would rather see him fight Guzman and Juan Diaz. I would be surprised if he beat both. But that's just a personal preference and I totally understand why Pacqauio would rather fight Hatton. Obviously its better money, there's a bigger reward legacy wise if he beats Hatton cause Hatton's a bigger name and is two weight classes up. Also a loss to Hatton has a bit of a built in excuse (size) that's not really there in the case of Guzman and is only there in a lesser extent with Diaz. So I get it and I'm not outraged in the slightest even though those two fights, Guzman and Diaz, have been two of my most wanted fights for a while now.
Still haven't read Bilbo's post 8)
I like Ouma's response. I just think there are far greater fights out there for both fighters to take.Simple as that.
lol such is my power with the pen that in order not to be swayed by my eloquent soliloquies one has to stick their fingers in theirs ears and close their eyes :author: :cwm15: :soapbox:
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
To be honest,I would read all that Bil,but I;m not going tol.95% of the peeps that agreed with you are Hatton fans/fans:Kel/Tam/Cortez the Killer/ONO(NO doubt I love you guys but it's no coincidence that you agree it's an acceptable fight,you're all huge Hatton fans ;) ;) )
The other few:FrozenSolid and Taeth: ;) ;) ;D Mayweather fans who think that every post is about Floyd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The only people who think Pacquaio isn't fighting everyone all the way up are the same people who were stupid enough to say the same about Mayweather. Guys like Pacquaio are chasing destiny, I think it takes a lot of balls on both guys parts. Hatton is taking a risk because he is fighting a guy who could still very punch like a mule at 140, but also Pacquiao has great speed and he is southpaw along with being amazingly talented. PAcquaio is taking great risk by going so far above his original weight. Also Hatton is better in a p4p sense than anyone Pacquaio has to fight right now except Marquez whom he is fighting next. Why would people complain about Pacquaio facing MArquez somebody else and Hatton in one year... Also I think HAtton should fight WItter and Maligniwhatever, but this fight is bigger than either of those fights and there is no sin in him taking this fight. Let the warriors be warriors.
Personally I would rather see him fight Guzman and Juan Diaz. I would be surprised if he beat both. But that's just a personal preference and I totally understand why Pacqauio would rather fight Hatton. Obviously its better money, there's a bigger reward legacy wise if he beats Hatton cause Hatton's a bigger name and is two weight classes up. Also a loss to Hatton has a bit of a built in excuse (size) that's not really there in the case of Guzman and is only there in a lesser extent with Diaz. So I get it and I'm not outraged in the slightest even though those two fights, Guzman and Diaz, have been two of my most wanted fights for a while now.
Still haven't read Bilbo's post 8)
I like Ouma's response. I just think there are far greater fights out there for both fighters to take.Simple as that.
Well I really don't have a problem with the fight. I get why its being made and If I was Pacquaio that's probably the fight I would be trying to make.
Just saying in my own little perfect selfish world I'd prefer him to fight Guzman and/or Diaz.
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
First step, before any of this talk takes place is for him to beat JMM. This is by far his hardest and most challenging fight of his career. Untill that has happend Manny shouldnt even think about the future. But Juan Guzman needs to face the winner.
Re: In defense of Hatton vs Pacquaio
I just think its unfair that people like Guzman, Diaz, etc. Are being shafted when they are the fights that the fans want to see. And Bilbo you say Pacquiao and Hatton are the same size, but Hatton is much more naturally bigger than Pacquiao. Plus Pacquiao has never even fought at Lightweight yet so we don't even know how he will perform at Lightweight let alone Jr Welterweight. I really think its a joke that Pacquiao would even consider fighting Hatton at 140, when Hatton is is very strong and quick at 140 plus Hatton has been at 140 for most of his career. You honestly think Pacquiao can jump up two weight classes in 1 year and fight Hatton at 140 and be in 100 in condition and be able to go 12 tough rounds with Hatton ?? because that is what it would take. Because there is now way Pacquiao would stop Hatton and one of his best weapon's his power wouldn't be much of a factor at Jr Welterweight, and lets not forget Pacquiao started off as a Flyweight thats 7 weight classes below Jr Welterweight if im not mistaken.
I can understand that both guys would get a lot of money for this fight and dollars make sense and etc, but i would really be disappointed if Pacquiao took on the weakest Lightweight belt holder then moved up to fight Hatton, without facing more worthy fighters like Guzman, Diaz, who are much more deserving of there shots. And i would be disappointed that Hatton isn't trying to clean up his own division and he would be reduced to fighting a former Flyweight. Sorry but it doesn't appeal to me at all.
