Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyler
People need to get a clue. Every single person who beat Trinidad beat him because they're flat out better than him. Please stop with the 'he went up too high in weight' bullsh!t. He'd lose to all of them no matter what weight he fought at. Styles make fights. Take it from me, I'm a Judah fan and that guy's got his @ss kicked more times than Trinidad.
You are spot on Skyler, weight means very little so why do we have weight classes, we should have more fights such as Manny Pac Vs Paul Williams, or maybe Ricky Hatton Vs Vernon Forrest, or better yet Miguel Cotto Vs Micheal Kessler. I agree with Skyler this weight class thing is bullshit bring on Hopkins VS Klitscho baby ::**
P.S Everyone who beat Judah's ass was smaller than him (With the exception of journeyman Carlos), so it was never a need for him to overachieve and fight someone way bigger which Trinidad has done on more than one occassion
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
Like I said before, Winky would alwais beat Tito because of his style but he was never better than Tito IMO. He only won a title at 154 after trying several times and losing it twice. He was less successfull moving up in weight than Tito was. The only common opponents were Hopkins, who beat both, and Vargas who outworked Wright but got a 12 round beat down by Tito. Also Wright lossed or drew to some fighters Tito would have put in the hospital.
Wright's style was simply all wrong for Tito plus Tito went into that fight unpreparred and unmotivated, which is no one's fault but his but the fight might have been different otherwise.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
TitoFan, I agree that Tito was not embarassed last weekend and there was no shame in that fight.
Hopkins:
In my opinion Tito was suckered into that fight. Hopkins knew he had the size and power advantage (Bernard debuted at Light Heavy) He knew he had the chin and we all knew he had the mind set to do anything to win.
When Tito stepped into the ring he again failed to adapt, fought one way and was outlasted and outblasted by a bigger man, who used his guile to wear Tito down and tire him sufficiently to take him out late.
Jones:
The layoff, the weight, the size differential. All considered I was impressed with how Tito performed. Obviously he was rusty, but he showed decent combination punching without ever firing all cylinders.
Recovering well from dual knockdowns and displaying decent head movement, it was a respectable send off to the faded legend.
Wright:
Styles make fights. But Winky's style nullified Felix's aggression and killed the fight. Winky won every round by killing all the action and taking Trinidad's punching ability away from him.
He was embarassed in this fight as Winky prepared perfectly for him and he failed to improvise and adapt any sort of alternative plan.
It must be noted that from a purely observational point of view Tito looked in better shape for Jones than he did for Wright.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Sweet Pea
1. When did I ever say he wasn't? You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
2. Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
3. OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
4. So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
5. When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones? Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
1.You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
So when did I ever say Trinidad was "not even close to a threat" to these guys? If those guys had brought less than their A game, Tito could have beaten them.
I said all 3 were better boxers than Tito, I didn't say that they were leaps and bounds better than Tito. Just better.
Quote:
2. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
I would say Tito was undersized at 160 if he had lost to less-than-stellar guys like William Joppy or Mayorga. But he didn't lose to those guys, he knocked them out. Tito only lost at middleweight because he faced Hopkins, one of the greatest middleweight champs ever. If it weren't for Hopkins, I have no doubt Tito could have been a true middleweight champ. As I said before, Tito lost to Hopkins because Hopkins is a better fighter, it wasn't simply a case of Hopkins being bigger.
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3. It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
None of those fighters that you listed are as skilled or savvy as Hopkins is. Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy... none of them comes close to Hopkins' skill and ring smarts. De La Hoya's the only one on that list who even comes close.
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4. It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
I scored the Vargas-Wright fight a draw. Prime Tito may have been able to beat that version of Winky. But I don't consider the Winky that fought Vargas to be the "prime" version of Winky. I think Winky was a late-bloomer and didn't truly reach his prime until around the time that he beat Mosley.
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5.Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Fair enough, but Jones spent close to a decade as the recognized #1 PFP fighter in the world, and Tito didn't.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Sweet Pea
1.
When did I ever say he wasn't? You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
2.
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
3.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
4.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
5.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones? Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Wow ::**, I'm amazed at how someone can type so much and have no idea about what the hell's going on ::**
1. Trinidad is NOT a threat to the 3 boxers who embarrassed him (out of 36 rounds, he won, what, 4? I'd hardly call that a threat).
2. How is a fighter undersized for a weight WHEN HE CAN NO LONGER MAKE HIS ORIGINAL WEIGHT? A fighter being undersized would be, for example, someone like Roy Jones who has to wear THREE LAYERS OF CLOTHING just to make the minimum weight requirement as he did against Ruiz. I seriously doubt you complained about Trinidad being undersized when he beat Joppy ::**
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had 'awesome' boxing skill? Excuse me while I laugh my @ss off.
4. I guess you think Holyfield honestly earned that draw in the first Lennox fight too ::**
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
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Originally Posted by smashcrusher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Sweet Pea
1.
When did I ever say he wasn't? You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
2.
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
3.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
4.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
5.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones? Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Wow ::**, I'm amazed at how someone can type so much and have no idea about what the hell's going on ::**
1. Trinidad is NOT a threat to the 3 boxers who embarrassed him (out of 36 rounds, he won, what, 4? I'd hardly call that a threat).
2. How is a fighter undersized for a weight WHEN HE CAN NO LONGER MAKE HIS ORIGINAL WEIGHT? A fighter being undersized would be, for example, someone like Roy Jones who has to wear THREE LAYERS OF CLOTHING just to make the minimum weight requirement as he did against Ruiz. I seriously doubt you complained about Trinidad being undersized when he beat Joppy ::**
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had 'awesome' boxing skill? Excuse me while I laugh my @ss off.
4. I guess you think Holyfield honestly earned that draw in the first Lennox fight too ::**
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
1. We just went over the whole size thing for about 4 post and I guess you did not read not a one of them so it's really no need for me to answer this idiotic question
2. Who told you Trinidad could not make 154, he was only there for a year before he moved up to 160, he was more than capable of making 154, your a idiot
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy were all champions and the NEXT BIG THING, what kind of skill would you descibe they had, man you know nothing about boxing. These three fighters were never the same after their fights with Tito. Tito's dominace over Joppy proves he is an over achiever not that he is or was a natural Middle Weight
4. What the hell does Holyfield Vs Lewis have to do with this debate, please go back to where you came from
5. Wow, a man holds a belt for six years and dominates his division and he has some boxing fan who knows very little about boxing come and say that " It's hardly dominance" I will never respond to one of your post again
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by smashcrusher
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Sweet Pea
1.
When did I ever say he wasn't? You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
2.
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
3.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
4.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
5.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones? Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Wow ::**, I'm amazed at how someone can type so much and have no idea about what the hell's going on ::**
1. Trinidad is NOT a threat to the 3 boxers who embarrassed him (out of 36 rounds, he won, what, 4? I'd hardly call that a threat).
2. How is a fighter undersized for a weight WHEN HE CAN NO LONGER MAKE HIS ORIGINAL WEIGHT? A fighter being undersized would be, for example, someone like Roy Jones who has to wear THREE LAYERS OF CLOTHING just to make the minimum weight requirement as he did against Ruiz. I seriously doubt you complained about Trinidad being undersized when he beat Joppy ::**
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had 'awesome' boxing skill? Excuse me while I laugh my @ss off.
4. I guess you think Holyfield honestly earned that draw in the first Lennox fight too ::**
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
1. We just went over the whole size thing for about 4 post and I guess you did not read not a one of them so it's really no need for me to answer this idiotic question
2. Who told you Trinidad could not make 154, he was only there for a year before he moved up to 160, he was more than capable of making 154, your a idiot
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy were all champions and the NEXT BIG THING, what kind of skill would you descibe they had, man you know nothing about boxing. These three fighters were never the same after their fights with Tito. Tito's dominace over Joppy proves he is an over achiever not that he is or was a natural Middle Weight
4. What the hell does Holyfield Vs Lewis have to do with this debate, please go back to where you came from
5. Wow, a man holds a belt for six years and dominates his division and he has some boxing fan who knows very little about boxing come and say that " It's hardly dominance" I will never respond to one of your post again
OwnedbyShza, I think you're misinterpreting what was written.
First and foremost, both Trinidad and his father said that he could no longer make jr. middle, this is why he never even considered meeting Oscar for a rematch at 154, this is not hyperbole, this is a fact. Also, you keep getting upset as if people are saying Felix is garbage, not only are they not, but even reading between the lines, they're not, they're simply saying that he is no where near as skilled as his three conquerors, who by the way are all all-time greats so that shows no shame. Felix is also an all time great. As for Vargas, Reid, and Joppy, let's not get carried away, they were not champions, they were belt holders in waiting for the real 154 lb champion, Trinidad. It would be like someone saying Ruiz was champion when Roy beat him. He was a belt holder. As for his analogy on Holyfield-Lewis, he's alluding to bogus decisions, as most do not think Vargas earned the W. However no one can say Trinidad was not dominant and an all time great.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
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Originally Posted by clean
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by smashcrusher
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
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Originally Posted by SweetPea
Trinidad has 3 losses, to 3 fighters who were simply better than he was, and who are all Hall of Famers. Hopkins, Winky, and Jones were simply better than Tito, and they would have beaten him regardless of weight, time, place, etc.
The only difference in the losses is that against Hopkins and Roy (especially Hopkins), Tito showed tremendous heart and kept fighting despite being severely outgunned and outclassed.
Against Winky, Tito seemed to walk in expecting an early KO, and once that didn't happen, he just let himself get picked apart for 12 rounds.
I disagree 100% with this statement.
Ok, let's take it point by point:
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Tito is one of the best fighters of our generation.
When did I ever say he wasn't?
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
It's funny how someone like Ricky Hatton can spend years and years at 140 then move up to 147 and lose and people complain that he was way to undersized for the weight,
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter.
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
on the other side of the coin Tito can fight one short year at 154 move up to 160 and lose and no one claimed that he was undersized, BULLSHIT, Tito was undersized and fought a much bigger Hopkins in which resulted in his first defeat, he had no business being at that weight and fighting that fight, he should have stayed at 154 and dominated just like he was doing.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't.
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
He took three years off and came back and loss to Wright, that was not a prime Tito that was an inactive Tito who had one fight against Mayorga prior to the match up.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't.
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Originally Posted by Owned by Shza
Roy Jones has alway's and will alway's be bigger and stronger than Tito Trinidad whether both fighters were shot or no, but considering that Jones has been active and Tito has not been I think it's a double insult for you too compare the two fighters at all, why you are at it let's get a Cotto Vs Pavlik fight for you to break down
You forgot to mention that Jones was faster too.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones?
Sweet Pea
1.
When did I ever say he wasn't? You don't have to blatantly say something " Like Trinidad is not a great boxer", people can get the feeling of what your saying in your post, and saying that size does not mean much simply is not true, and acting like Trinidad is not even close to a threat to these boxers talent wise is pure fiction.
2.
Many people say this... I am not one of them. I've been saying for a long time that Hatton was overrated and not an elite fighter. I think you miss understanding the point here, I am not focusing on Ricky Hatton here I am focusing on fighters who move up in weight and lose and their fans claim that they were too small, well how come no one said that about Tito because it was totally true, and I still have not heard you say that Tito was undersized at 160 WHY?
3.
OK, so are you saying that Tito was actually a better boxer than Hopkins, and that it was simply a matter of size and strength? If Hopkins had been an inch or two shorter, six pounds lighter, and a natural 154 pounder, do you think Tito would have defeated him at 154? Because I don't It's funny how in 40 plus fights people think that Tito has faced all brawlers who's mentality is to stand toe to toe with Tito and let him fight a blow for blow fight and Tito is victorious, BULLSHIT. In his run in which he fought 6 strait champions in 3 weight classes (De La Hoya, Reid, Thiam, Vargas, Joppy,Hopkins) only one decided to brawl with him and that was Thiam who decided to quit in the middle of a round. Fighters such as Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had awesome boxing skill in which they displayed in previous fights, it's just that they did not have the power to keep Tito off of them, he could walk threw their punches and impose his will with his power, against a much bigger Hopkins he could not walk threw his punches and his blows did not effect Hopkins the way they did to others in lighter weight classes, so too answer your question a smaller Hopkins (at least of similiar size), yes I think Tito could have beaten him
4.
So do you think the prime Tito that KO'd Vargas could have defeated Winky? Because I don't It's funny that you ask something like that because a prime Tito that KO'd Vargas beat the man who defeated Winky Wright, I will send you a link to that fight, if Vargas could beat him Trinidad would have KO'd him
5.
When TIto was at his prime at 147/154, and Jones was in his prime at 160/168/175, who do you think was more dominant in their weight classes... Tito or Jones? Considering Tito unified the belts at 147 and made 17 title defenses you could make an arguement for Tito ;)
Wow ::**, I'm amazed at how someone can type so much and have no idea about what the hell's going on ::**
1. Trinidad is NOT a threat to the 3 boxers who embarrassed him (out of 36 rounds, he won, what, 4? I'd hardly call that a threat).
2. How is a fighter undersized for a weight WHEN HE CAN NO LONGER MAKE HIS ORIGINAL WEIGHT? A fighter being undersized would be, for example, someone like Roy Jones who has to wear THREE LAYERS OF CLOTHING just to make the minimum weight requirement as he did against Ruiz. I seriously doubt you complained about Trinidad being undersized when he beat Joppy ::**
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy had 'awesome' boxing skill? Excuse me while I laugh my @ss off.
4. I guess you think Holyfield honestly earned that draw in the first Lennox fight too ::**
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
1. We just went over the whole size thing for about 4 post and I guess you did not read not a one of them so it's really no need for me to answer this idiotic question
2. Who told you Trinidad could not make 154, he was only there for a year before he moved up to 160, he was more than capable of making 154, your a idiot
3. Reid, Vargas, and Joppy were all champions and the NEXT BIG THING, what kind of skill would you descibe they had, man you know nothing about boxing. These three fighters were never the same after their fights with Tito. Tito's dominace over Joppy proves he is an over achiever not that he is or was a natural Middle Weight
4. What the hell does Holyfield Vs Lewis have to do with this debate, please go back to where you came from
5. Wow, a man holds a belt for six years and dominates his division and he has some boxing fan who knows very little about boxing come and say that " It's hardly dominance" I will never respond to one of your post again
OwnedbyShza, I think you're misinterpreting what was written.
First and foremost, both Trinidad and his father said that he could no longer make jr. middle, this is why he never even considered meeting Oscar for a rematch at 154, this is not hyperbole, this is a fact. Also, you keep getting upset as if people are saying Felix is garbage, not only are they not, but even reading between the lines, they're not, they're simply saying that he is no where near as skilled as his three conquerors, who by the way are all all-time greats so that shows no shame. Felix is also an all time great. As for Vargas, Reid, and Joppy, let's not get carried away, they were not champions, they were belt holders in waiting for the real 154 lb champion, Trinidad. It would be like someone saying Ruiz was champion when Roy beat him. He was a belt holder. As for his analogy on Holyfield-Lewis, he's alluding to bogus decisions, as most do not think Vargas earned the W. However no one can say Trinidad was not dominant and an all time great.
Boy, I gotta get in to this ;D
1. Tito, Wright, Hopkins, Jones => The best Welterweight of his era, The best Lightmiddleweight of his era, The best Middleweight of his era and the best Lightheavyweight of his era. Anyone that disputes this needs to get his head checked.
2. Tito lossed to Wright who lossed to Hopkins who lossed to Jones... anybody see a pattern developing...
3. Look up, size does matter.
4. Style matters more, Tito would most likely never beat the men who beat him but the size made it less competitive than it should've been.
5. Tito's fame and reputation for being a devastating power puncher worked against him later in his career as his opponents realized more and more they had no chance beating him unless they concentrated on defense and fought an inteligent fight. (See DLH and Hopkins fighting very differently than their norm). I have often thought that if Tito had not fought Joppy before Hopkins and if Hopkins had not seen what Tito could do as a Middleweight he might've made the same mistake Joppy did and tried to go after Tito. But that is one of those hypothetical questions of mine that will never be answered.
6. Tito could make 154. I don't care what he and his father said. You don't fight three fights in a weight and than not be able to make it. The only reason he moved up to 160 is because he was already thinking of fighting Jones Jr. I don't think Tito really bealived Hopkins to be a serious threat. As a matter of fact, leading to the tournament, he repeatedly said that Joppy was the best middleweight.
7. Vargas and Reid were not belt holders, they were, without a doubt, the two best 154 pounders at the time. As for Joppy, at the time he had been a champion for just as long as Hopkins.
8. Hmm, let me see what else....oh yea, Tito beat Oscar and I won't pay attention to anyone that sais different untill they see the fight and post a round by round which I still have not seen one with DLH winning on this forum...
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
I wonder if it bother Roy that Hopkins completely dominiated fight that he couldnt. Hopkins completely dismantled Tarver, Tito, and Johnson something that Roy failed to do. Then again styles make fights. Im a fan of both guys and a rematch even now would make for an interesting fight, though it probably wouldnt play out like it would have if they fought 3 or 4 years ago.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
A lot of people wonder why Tito kept moving up in weight. The answer is simple, there was no one left to fight.
Between Tito, Whitaker and Quartey, the welterweight division was pretty much cleaned out. Then DLH came in and beat Whitaker and Quartey but lossed to Tito. At this point Tito had been strugling to make 147 for some time and only stayed to fight Oscar.
He moved to 154 and didn't puzzyfoot around the division, he went after the two top guys and beat them. By this time Wright was nowhere to be seen cuz he had recently lossed to Vargas. So now all Tito had to do was wait a while till DLH decided to move up and challenge him. But something unexpected happend at this time. DLH lossed to Mosley who at that time was not really that well known. Tito by this time considered himself the best fighter in the world. He began to believe his own hype and felt unbeatable. His only thread which was DLH had been beaten by what he most likely considered a lesser fighter. There was only one man who stood in the way of pound 4 pound supremacy and that was Roy Jones Jr.
At the time, Hopkins was having some very ugly and unimpressive fights with Echols and some other lesser opponents. And Jones was easilly dominating his division sitting at his throne uncontested and in the Tito camp's eye maybe complacent and ready for the picking. So Tito moved to 160 thinking he would just steam roll through like before and then challenge Jones. I don't think he ever saw Hopkins coming.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
[quote=smashcrusher
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
[/quote]
Biggest win of his career? Personally, I think the Joppy and Vargas wins were both bigger. Joppy was Tito's first win at 160 (in his first fight at that weight, no less)... and Vargas was an undefeated phenom who Oscar was scared of at the time.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
[quote=TitoFan ]
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Originally Posted by smashcrusher
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
[/quote
Biggest win of his career? Personally, I think the Joppy and Vargas wins were both bigger. Joppy was Tito's first win at 160 (in his first fight at that weight, no less)... and Vargas was an undefeated phenom who Oscar was scared of at the time.
The Vargas fight was his 'best' win, not his 'biggest' win. Oscar-Trinidad was (at the time) the biggest non heavyweight bout in history. 15 years from now when people look at Trinidad's list of wins, the first name that will stick out the most is undoubtedly Oscar, and let's face it, Oscar is far greater than Vargas as well.
Re: Comparing Trinidad's losses
[quote=skyler ]
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Originally Posted by TitoFan
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Originally Posted by smashcrusher
5. When the biggest win of your career is one in which the majority of people don't even think you won, I'd hardly call that dominance, sorry :lickish:
[/quote
Biggest win of his career? Personally, I think the Joppy and Vargas wins were both bigger. Joppy was Tito's first win at 160 (in his first fight at that weight, no less)... and Vargas was an undefeated phenom who Oscar was scared of at the time.
The Vargas fight was his 'best' win, not his 'biggest' win. Oscar-Trinidad was (at the time) the biggest non heavyweight bout in history. 15 years from now when people look at Trinidad's list of wins, the first name that will stick out the most is undoubtedly Oscar, and let's face it, Oscar is far greater than Vargas as well.
I see your point, Skyler. The Vargas win was better, but not necessarily bigger, due to the difference in fame between Oscar and Vargas. It's all in name recognition.
