No matter who he beats, can calzaghe be the lbs4lbs greatest?

"Hopkins is a great boxer but overrated. When you look at his record the only other genuine middleweight greats he ever fought, jones and taylor (not a great imo), he lost to. His best wins came against fighters he had significant physical advantages over…de la hoya, Trinidad, wright and tarver who had to lose 40lbs to make weight. Joe will be rated above him one day"
:goodpost:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

At this stage the pound for pound status will prove evasive for Joe.

Having blossomed in the eyes of the boxing public at such a late stage of his career, the essential fights are only becoming possible now at this advanced stage of his career.
Calzaghe, although a gifted natural athlete, a diligent trainer and a superb boxer, is slightly diminished now in comparison to the Calzaghe of a couple of years ago.

Problems with his hands coupled with his ever increasing age mean that the big fights do pose a threat. In any Calzaghe fight a broken hand is a possibility. As is the risk of his body ageing quickly.

Although viewed as his crowning glory, the win over Kessler did represent a different side of Joe. In terms of power he casnnot administer the same punches he did in his earlier career nor can he take the punches he did early in his career.

Not unlike his forthcoming adversary Bernard Hopkins, Calzaghe's game right now is based upon guile, intellect and expierience. His primary weapons are his speed coupled with his movement, useless to an inexpierienced boxer, but to a tactician like Calzaghe these tools can be sufficient in huge match ups.

However when the topic of pound for pound arises some doubt lingers.
The very term suggests something physical. To me it means who has the best brain coupled with the best physical ability.

Calzaghe although a brilliant boxer, an extremely fit man and as I've mentioned a diligent trainer, does not have the best physical game in the sport. In my eyes he will never be No.1 pound for pound in my eyes, because he din't get the big fights in his prime

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Good points made but if Joe can Vanquish Hopkins then his P4P rises and he will be considered a great (or should be). But to be considered P4P greatest i don't know what he could do to achieve that.

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Originally Posted by bikersk

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

At this stage the pound for pound status will prove evasive for Joe.

Having blossomed in the eyes of the boxing public at such a late stage of his career, the essential fights are only becoming possible now at this advanced stage of his career.
Calzaghe, although a gifted natural athlete, a diligent trainer and a superb boxer, is slightly diminished now in comparison to the Calzaghe of a couple of years ago.

Problems with his hands coupled with his ever increasing age mean that the big fights do pose a threat. In any Calzaghe fight a broken hand is a possibility. As is the risk of his body ageing quickly.

Although viewed as his crowning glory, the win over Kessler did represent a different side of Joe. In terms of power he casnnot administer the same punches he did in his earlier career nor can he take the punches he did early in his career.

Not unlike his forthcoming adversary Bernard Hopkins, Calzaghe's game right now is based upon guile, intellect and expierience. His primary weapons are his speed coupled with his movement, useless to an inexpierienced boxer, but to a tactician like Calzaghe these tools can be sufficient in huge match ups.

However when the topic of pound for pound arises some doubt lingers.
The very term suggests something physical. To me it means who has the best brain coupled with the best physical ability.

Calzaghe although a brilliant boxer, an extremely fit man and as I've mentioned a diligent trainer, does not have the best physical game in the sport. In my eyes he will never be No.1 pound for pound in my eyes, because he din't get the big fights in his prime

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Good points made but if Joe can Vanquish Hopkins then his P4P rises and he will be considered a great (or should be). But to be considered P4P greatest i don't know what he could do to achieve that.

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A win over Hopkins would see his stocks rise considerably that much is true.

In pound for pound terms he may climb a little or perhaps solidify his place at number three or so.

However, it is a commonly held belief that Calzaghe has only two fights left in him. Unfortunately he just hasn't enough time left.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by bikersk

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

At this stage the pound for pound status will prove evasive for Joe.

Having blossomed in the eyes of the boxing public at such a late stage of his career, the essential fights are only becoming possible now at this advanced stage of his career.
Calzaghe, although a gifted natural athlete, a diligent trainer and a superb boxer, is slightly diminished now in comparison to the Calzaghe of a couple of years ago.

Problems with his hands coupled with his ever increasing age mean that the big fights do pose a threat. In any Calzaghe fight a broken hand is a possibility. As is the risk of his body ageing quickly.

Although viewed as his crowning glory, the win over Kessler did represent a different side of Joe. In terms of power he casnnot administer the same punches he did in his earlier career nor can he take the punches he did early in his career.

Not unlike his forthcoming adversary Bernard Hopkins, Calzaghe's game right now is based upon guile, intellect and expierience. His primary weapons are his speed coupled with his movement, useless to an inexpierienced boxer, but to a tactician like Calzaghe these tools can be sufficient in huge match ups.

However when the topic of pound for pound arises some doubt lingers.
The very term suggests something physical. To me it means who has the best brain coupled with the best physical ability.

Calzaghe although a brilliant boxer, an extremely fit man and as I've mentioned a diligent trainer, does not have the best physical game in the sport. In my eyes he will never be No.1 pound for pound in my eyes, because he din't get the big fights in his prime

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Good points made but if Joe can Vanquish Hopkins then his P4P rises and he will be considered a great (or should be). But to be considered P4P greatest i don't know what he could do to achieve that.

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A win over Hopkins would see his stocks rise considerably that much is true.

In pound for pound terms he may climb a little or perhaps solidify his place at number three or so.

However, it is a commonly held belief that Calzaghe has only two fights left in him. Unfortunately he just hasn't enough time left.

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Yeah that seems to be true for Joe. Can't see him being considered P4P 1. He's left it a bit late i guess.

Lately he's made a great arguement for his ATG status though. I feel he is certainly an ATG Super Middleweight, although that is helped by the lack of history in the division I guess.

Fair points and a well constructed argument Hitmandonny BUT I don’t think joe has ever really been a KO artist, certainly not a one puch KO artist, most of his stoppages have come through volume of punches…TKOs. He still hits hard, he hurt Kessler.

Hitmandonny who has the best physical game in the sport in your opinion then? Mayweather? He has shown physical fragility over the years particularly regarding his hands

Also I don’t know how you can judge that his punch resistance has diminished, he has been in with some big hitters recently in Kessler and lacy and stood up superbly.

Judging his power on the Kessler fight is difficult. Kessler has never been down as an amateur or a pro. Bika has never lost by KO even to a regarded heavy hitter in Lucian Bute. Lacy has shown to have a great chin aswell.

The bottom line, most championship fights between the very best boxers end up going the distance like jones v Hopkins, mayweather vs de la hoya, calzaghe v Kessler. This is why mayweathers record doesn’t have the best KO % as he has fought so many championship bouts, this is why calzaghes KO% in recent fights has been lower than his average, he has been fighting the very best opposition, most good fighters have good chins. Mayweathers lowish KO% doesnt mean he cant punch, look what happened to hatton. In the end hatton’s assumption that mayweather couldn’t hurt him was a fatal error in his tactics and preparation. Hopkins wont make that mistake against Calzaghe that’s for sure, if he does he will end up on his back!

I think its hard to say that calzaghes power has diminished because of his hands. When they are broken or hurting then yes, he takes something off his punches consciously. Although, I don’t believe calzaghe takes weight of his biggest punches in a fight based on fear for his hands. When a fighter goes for the big shots there is no time for doubt or consciously only putting say 90% effort into your powershots. The day that happens the day you lose and end up on your back. His hands were fine against Kessler and I am sure he put everything into his shots, any apparent loss of power probably wouldn’t have anything to do with his hands. People said the same of mayweather and his hands and look what happened to hatton. A fighters natural KO power is probably the last thing that he loses as he ages. Certainly its always a threat in the first few founds while a fighters stamina is still there.

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Originally Posted by buhlestnoble

Fair points and a well constructed argument Hitmandonny BUT I don’t think joe has ever really been a KO artist, certainly not a one puch KO artist, most of his stoppages have come through volume of punches…TKOs. He still hits hard, he hurt Kessler.

Hitmandonny who has the best physical game in the sport in your opinion then? Mayweather? He has shown physical fragility over the years particularly regarding his hands

Also I don’t know how you can judge that his punch resistance has diminished, he has been in with some big hitters recently in Kessler and lacy and stood up superbly.

Judging his power on the Kessler fight is difficult. Kessler has never been down as an amateur or a pro. Bika has never lost by KO even to a regarded heavy hitter in Lucian Bute. Lacy has shown to have a great chin aswell.

The bottom line, most championship fights between the very best boxers end up going the distance like jones v Hopkins, mayweather vs de la hoya, calzaghe v Kessler. This is why mayweathers record doesn’t have the best KO % as he has fought so many championship bouts, this is why calzaghes KO% in recent fights has been lower than his average, he has been fighting the very best opposition, most good fighters have good chins. Mayweathers lowish KO% doesnt mean he cant punch, look what happened to hatton. In the end hatton’s assumption that mayweather couldn’t hurt him was a fatal error in his tactics and preparation. Hopkins wont make that mistake against Calzaghe that’s for sure, if he does he will end up on his back!

I think its hard to say that calzaghes power has diminished because of his hands. When they are broken or hurting then yes, he takes something off his punches consciously. Although, I don’t believe calzaghe takes weight of his biggest punches in a fight based on fear for his hands. When a fighter goes for the big shots there is no time for doubt or consciously only putting say 90% effort into your powershots. The day that happens the day you lose and end up on your back. His hands were fine against Kessler and I am sure he put everything into his shots, any apparent loss of power probably wouldn’t have anything to do with his hands. People said the same of mayweather and his hands and look what happened to hatton. A fighters natural KO power is probably the last thing that he loses as he ages. Certainly its always a threat in the first few founds while a fighters stamina is still there.

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You say Calzaghe was in with a big puncher like Lacy but Lacy never hit him mate lets be honest. But i do agree there is nothing wrong with Calzaghe's punch resistance. He was hit with huge uppercuts from Kessler and he never even looked close to going down. Calzaghe's power has certainly got worse over the year's. In fact Calzaghe's last KO was in 1997 before he was even champion.

And as for this Calzaghe vs Mayweather debate no way does Calzaghe pass Mayweather in P4P rankings unless Mayweather loses. Mayweather has won 5 world titles in 5 different weight classes, he also has much better wins than Calzaghe has let me give you an example.

Mayweather's best Wins.

Genaro Hernandez
Zab Judah
Angel Manfredy
Carlos Hernandez
ODLH
Ricky Hatton
Diego Corrales
Jesus Chavez
Jose Luis Castillo x2
Arturo Gatti
Phillip Ndou

Joe Calzaghe's best Wins

Robin Reid
Chris Eubank
Charles Brewer
Mario Veit x2
Jeff Lacy
Mikkel Kessler
Byron Mitchell
Richie Woodhall
Sakio Bika

Im sorry but Calzaghe's resume is nowhere near as good as Mayweather's. And after Mayweather beats ODLH again he will fight Miguel Cotto and beat him IMO. Then no matter what Calzaghe does he won't be P4P number 1 unless Mayweather loses. All these people saying *Calzaghe will be P4P number 1 if*. But do you think when Calzaghe is fighting Pavlik or etc, that Mayweather won't be fighting in a big fight of his own ?? and plus P4P Mayweather is a better fighter than Calzaghe is.

No one will have a shot at # 1(I know Pac is some people's #1) until Floyd retires... Calzaghe is a great fighter. No doubt... But there is just no ultra great superstars that he'd be able to go up against that would sway people in that way... I mean, Floyd is fighting the Delahoyas and the Hattons... Calzaghe is fighting the Hokins and Kesslers... They are the very best he can find right now and he gets credit from me but niether of those fighters will catapult him to #1. If Calzaghe beats Pavlik he might reach in the top three... But one... no. Not even two as Pac is solidly there.

Welcome to the board!;D:cool:

Got to agree there is nothing Joe can do to get himself p4p no1 spot or 2 really.You can make point after point but it boils down to a simple thing in the end..The names just aint there for Joe.

Fair points ICB. Mayweather is top of my p4p too of course. Its interesting that you post his record up though and what strikes me is that to a casual boxing fan there probably aren’t that many big names there. Don’t get me wrong his unbeaten record is 1st class but perhaps equally strong in his argument to be p4p best is the skills he has dazzled us with.

Its interesting though that imo calzaghes record stands up pretty well actually and its growing faster than and certainly catching up with mayweather’s. Some wins over good quality fighters, former respected world champs and this has been validated in many ways by the Kessler victory. But in many ways like mayweather, its been the way that calzaghe has been so dominating in most of his fights, certainly in the big ones that makes him a very strong p4p contender.

On mayweathers opposition you have to admit that apart from de la hoya there isn’t another current legitimate super fighter in his record. Castillo and corrales are very good but not in the de la hoya league. I often think if de la hoya had fought mayweathers opposition (de la hoya started as a superfeather weight like floyd) he probably would have the same unbeaten record and this view leads to interesting questions. Mayweathers recent opposition has been a bit disappointing, he pretty much skipped the light welter weight division entirely and still hasn’t fought any genuine current welterweight champ (baldomir was no undisputed champ).

Calzaghe for me has one thing mayweather hasn’t achieved and that’s a win over an unbeaten champion fighter at his prime at his own weight class….like Kessler and even lacy who was hugely rated and expected to win. Hatton at welter doesn’t count as he was too small. The closeness of the de la hoya fight in many ways validates my opinion, for me he NEEDS TO FIGHT COTTO before I close the book. As it happens I do think he will win that one and then I agree the door would be pretty much shut on calzaghe but to say that joe cant even make no 2 on the list is crazy!

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Originally Posted by Tins06

Got to agree there is nothing Joe can do to get himself p4p no1 spot or 2 really.You can make point after point but it boils down to a simple thing in the end..The names just aint there for Joe.

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I mean, he can beat Jones... He can Probably(I hope not but...) beat Hopkins. But these are guys that he should have fought years ago. Jones is nolonger the same fighter although still can fight at or around world level. Who can Joe beat to rocket him to #1... Pavlik would get him close. I mean... If he beat Hopkins, Jones, Taylor and Pavlik I still don't think he could take the second spot from Manny... I just don't... Although that would be a great end to a great career.:D

Buhlestnoble:
In his early career Joe hit hard. Chris Eubank recorded in his auto biography that Calzaghe gave him a painful war in which he impressed the former Champ. With several stoppages in a row, Joe began to punch with less conviction when his recurring hand problems became a great hinderence.

Against a puncher like Kessler it is inevitable that at one stage or another you will be hurt. Calzaghe however, looked more subceptible to punishment than he ever did. And he said afterward he had been hurt badly on a number of occasions.

Calzaghe himself has said that he has altered his punch technique in order to preserve his brittle hands. In order to prove this theory all one has to do is compare his recent fights with his first twenty in which he was a conventional puncher who always went for the stoppage

When questioned who I feel is the best physical guy in the sport I first must contest that I said the best combination of boxing thought and physicality.

However the best physical athlete may be Pacquiao, although his thought leaves something to be desired.

Mayweather deserves the pound for pound mantel.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Buhlestnoble:
In his early career Joe hit hard. Chris Eubank recorded in his auto biography that Calzaghe gave him a painful war in which he impressed the former Champ. With several stoppages in a row, Joe began to punch with less conviction when his recurring hand problems became a great hinderence.

Against a puncher like Kessler it is inevitable that at one stage or another you will be hurt. Calzaghe however, looked more subceptible to punishment than he ever did. And he said afterward he had been hurt badly on a number of occasions.

Calzaghe himself has said that he has altered his punch technique in order to preserve his brittle hands. In order to prove this theory all one has to do is compare his recent fights with his first twenty in which he was a conventional puncher who always went for the stoppage

When questioned who I feel is the best physical guy in the sport I first must contest that I said the best combination of boxing thought and physicality.

However the best physical athlete may be Pacquiao, although his thought leaves something to be desired.

Mayweather deserves the pound for pound mantel.

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Yeah, both those guys can't even be argued about for one and two. You've got both types of physicality in those fighters... Pac is a swarming guy who has a tendancy to bully... He has been polished quite a bit under Roach's tutalage, though. Floyd, although thought of as a "puncher" early in his career(it's funny... I was watching his first 2 pro fights yesterday and they were preaching about how he's a pure puncher) he has the physical gifts to not have to be... He doesn't need to put himself in harm's way anymore to deal damage. He still has power even moving devisions... Although he does pile up accumilation punches he can still KO a guy when he has to (a la Hatton).

Early in his career Mayweather could be viewed as one of the premier punches in his division and even today, if there is a fighter who can stop you at Welterweight it would be Floyd. So I agree with you there Pride.

I also agree that Pacquiao has been polished by Roach.
Many including myself have taken a dim view of some of Roach's mannorisms before fights (abandoning fighters) but he has worked well for Pacquiao.

Fair play hitmandonny your entitled to your view and I cant really prove anything against it but I don’t really agree that calzaghe hasn’t really been punching since late 1990s. Changing his technique and saying this is why he doesn’t KO anymore certainly isn’t something I have heard joe talk about often if not at all. But the stats do show more Kos early in his career although I believe this was because generally the standard of opponent was lower.

On the p4p list calzaghe moves ahead of pacquiao on my list to no 2 if he beats Hopkins and certainly if he fights and beats say pavlik