The All time Heavyweight thread ( a different perspective)

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

No peak Holyfield ??Yes the timing and points in career's were askew...but the man beat 4 of the 6 mentioned....I know,Holmes was not prime and Bowe took 2 of 3 :-X.

No Marciano :o........Lyle's going to be furious...;D

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No way i would put Holyfield in my list as much as i respect him, a 42 year old Holmes almost beat a prime Holyfield. Holmes come on very strong in the later rounds and took 5 rounds out of 12 IMO, a prime Holmes out points Holyfield no question. Holyfield was far too brave for his own good, and thats why he was badly hurt and wobbled by lesser fighters like Cooper, Dokes, Stewart, instead of using his boxing skills which he did have as he showed in the 2nd fight with Bowe. Holyfield is one of my favorites but he doesn't make my list.

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Well I actually agree that a prime Holmes would outpoint Holyfield but since when has being brave been criteria to be held against a fighter.He backseated his skills and wore his heart on his sleeves...Now if He was carted off and the resulting almost's actually became a certainy in defeat than I could see what your saying about reasons not to recognize him as all time.Holmes in his comeback could have and did cause problems for some top guys,you know that.Not pretty from Holyfield and the cut was a huge factor & he dealt with Holmes.It may surprise ya but I only had that a 3 point fight for Holyfield. He was stunned by cooper and Stewart in the 1st fight because both were quality punchers in good condition at the times...I have always said that Holyfield with Cooper was the most Holyfield has ever been hurt as a professional Imo.No excuses because of last minute replacements,hometown let down etc.In know way can I hold any minute of the Dokes fight aginst him,That was a war of attrition with a revitalized fast handed capable Dokes in only Holyfields 3rd fight as Heavyweight and he came through in explosive fashion.Sometimes his Temper and pride got the best of him (Bowe I Imo) but his skills were as solid as they come.I hear what you are saying but by no means was he a clueless sell out brawler who ignored his boxing skillset...both were used in conjunction with mass heart to make him what he was.A great..to each his own.

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I actually replied to this 3 times but my computer is messing up so it didn't go through, so i'll have to reply in a few days im really busy at the moment.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

No way i would put Holyfield in my list as much as i respect him, a 42 year old Holmes almost beat a prime Holyfield. Holmes come on very strong in the later rounds and took 5 rounds out of 12 IMO, a prime Holmes out points Holyfield no question. Holyfield was far too brave for his own good, and thats why he was badly hurt and wobbled by lesser fighters like Cooper, Dokes, Stewart, instead of using his boxing skills which he did have as he showed in the 2nd fight with Bowe. Holyfield is one of my favorites but he doesn't make my list.

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Well I actually agree that a prime Holmes would outpoint Holyfield but since when has being brave been criteria to be held against a fighter.He backseated his skills and wore his heart on his sleeves...Now if He was carted off and the resulting almost's actually became a certainy in defeat than I could see what your saying about reasons not to recognize him as all time.Holmes in his comeback could have and did cause problems for some top guys,you know that.Not pretty from Holyfield and the cut was a huge factor & he dealt with Holmes.It may surprise ya but I only had that a 3 point fight for Holyfield. He was stunned by cooper and Stewart in the 1st fight because both were quality punchers in good condition at the times...I have always said that Holyfield with Cooper was the most Holyfield has ever been hurt as a professional Imo.No excuses because of last minute replacements,hometown let down etc.In know way can I hold any minute of the Dokes fight aginst him,That was a war of attrition with a revitalized fast handed capable Dokes in only Holyfields 3rd fight as Heavyweight and he came through in explosive fashion.Sometimes his Temper and pride got the best of him (Bowe I Imo) but his skills were as solid as they come.I hear what you are saying but by no means was he a clueless sell out brawler who ignored his boxing skillset...both were used in conjunction with mass heart to make him what he was.A great..to each his own.

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I actually replied to this 3 times but my computer is messing up so it didn't go through, so i'll have to reply in a few days im really busy at the moment.

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umm..ok...:-X...;D Hope all is well?

Interesting take...Holyfield is a tough one. What was his best night? He has always seemed inconsistent to me. Was Moorer 1 really just b/c of the heart? In that case was the rematch his best night? Was Bowe being heavier in the second fight the most telling factor? I will say that I was screaming at the TV when Evander abondoned boxing in the first Bowe fight and started trying to slug. He really wanted to be a ko artist at HW and I think he put on muscle he didn't need which probably had alot to do with his stamina issue. Its hard to say what was the best night for some of the older generation (Johnson/Louis) and then there is the size issue (Marciano/Dempsey). I have often said that the Bowe that won the belt was one of the finest HWs I've ever seen. He much like Tyson had his emotional/mental issues to blame for his demise more than anything. I think Foremans destruction of Frazier can be said to be his best night. I personally would take him over Lewis. I think he could force Lennox out of his technical skill set and win a slugfest. I personally feel that top Evander and Lennox would beat any version of Tyson. So I think it comes down to most complete and adapatable. So call me cliche but I'm still taking Ali on his best night against the field.

Said it before, i'll say it again...for me its Mike Tyson! i know most dont agree and i accept that but for me his sheer blend of skill, speed and power, aswell as a underated defence at his best makes him unstoppable!

Holyfield should be very high on the list. Someone said they didn´t rate him highly because of who almost beat him. That´s exactly the point! Holyfield was the ultimate warrior..."almost beat" translates to Holyfield digging deep and coming back to win. "Almost" shouldn´t be a factor, as long as Holyfield won. That´s why Marciano is the hero he is...Because of hardfought wins. Just look at the record. Fought Bowe 3 times, Moorer twice, Tyson twice, Stewart twice, Foreman, Holmes, Mercer, Dokes, Ruiz 3 times (everyone scoffs at Ruiz but Ruiz has made a career out of beating people he should not be able to beat, ugly or not). Holyfield knocked down Bowe who had never been down, Tyson who had only been down once, Mercer who had never been down. Holyfield on his best night (probably the first Tyson fight) was no joke and would probably be even money with the prime Tyson (Tyson was a bit past it when they fought, but not a lot)

And fought Lewis twice also, how could I forget that. And did very well in spite of being 37 years old and much smaller and Lewis being right in his prime

This is a good thread:

The Tyson that fought Spinks - an electrifying a performer as ever stepped into a boxing ring.

The Ali that fought Cleveland Williams - absolute grace under pressure and a devastating display.

The Louis that fought Schemeling - I'm not sure any fighter in history could have lived with Louis that night.

The Marciano that fought Walcott (first time) - you could have hit the Rock with the kitchen sink that night and he was going to walk right through it.

The Liston that fought Wayne Bethea - a monstrous performance

The Foreman that fought Frazier - power, power, power, power and size.

I'd say that Marciano and one of the Kltichsko's would duke it out in the end, with Marciano taking the victory.

If Britkid was here he would tell you that the Buster Douglas that beat Tyson should be on the list. I hope it was Britkid, actually it was I remember pretty clearly.

I think the Ali that beat Ernie Terrell or Cleveland Williams is pretty much unmatched. I don't know if anyone in heavyweight history hits him much less beats him.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Well I actually agree that a prime Holmes would outpoint Holyfield but since when has being brave been criteria to be held against a fighter.He backseated his skills and wore his heart on his sleeves...Now if He was carted off and the resulting almost's actually became a certainy in defeat than I could see what your saying about reasons not to recognize him as all time.Holmes in his comeback could have and did cause problems for some top guys,you know that.Not pretty from Holyfield and the cut was a huge factor & he dealt with Holmes.It may surprise ya but I only had that a 3 point fight for Holyfield. He was stunned by cooper and Stewart in the 1st fight because both were quality punchers in good condition at the times...I have always said that Holyfield with Cooper was the most Holyfield has ever been hurt as a professional Imo.No excuses because of last minute replacements,hometown let down etc.In know way can I hold any minute of the Dokes fight aginst him,That was a war of attrition with a revitalized fast handed capable Dokes in only Holyfields 3rd fight as Heavyweight and he came through in explosive fashion.Sometimes his Temper and pride got the best of him (Bowe I Imo) but his skills were as solid as they come.I hear what you are saying but by no means was he a clueless sell out brawler who ignored his boxing skillset...both were used in conjunction with mass heart to make him what he was.A great..to each his own.

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I actually replied to this 3 times but my computer is messing up so it didn't go through, so i'll have to reply in a few days im really busy at the moment.

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umm..ok...:-X...;D Hope all is well?

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Ok now i have time to reply to this i think you got the wrong end of the stick, i never said Holyfield being an extremely brave fighter was a bad thing, but if you look at it in another way it was. It caused him being shook up much more than he should of been, plus it cost him badly in the 1st Bowe fight, Holyfield being too brave for his own good is good for the fans watching excitement wise. But health wise and fighting against big punchers or bigger men its the wrong thing to do. I mean really and truthfully he could have counter punched Cooper, Stewart, Dokes, heads off if he used his surperior boxing skills.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by ICB

I actually replied to this 3 times but my computer is messing up so it didn't go through, so i'll have to reply in a few days im really busy at the moment.

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umm..ok...:-X...;D Hope all is well?

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Ok now i have time to reply to this i think you got the wrong end of the stick, i never said Holyfield being an extremely brave fighter was a bad thing, but if you look at it in another way it was. It caused him being shook up much more than he should of been, plus it cost him badly in the 1st Bowe fight, Holyfield being too brave for his own good is good for the fans watching excitement wise. But health wise and fighting against big punchers or bigger men its the wrong thing to do. I mean really and truthfully he could have counter punched Cooper, Stewart, Dokes, heads off if he used his surperior boxing skills.

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I hear ya bro...Glad to see you back ICB.If The man would have tried to fight like 100% of what he was not...he would not be Evander.His counter punching remained strong but his heart & determination combined with skill made him who he was.Unfortuanatly it is at this moment what is hurting him the most right now Imo....He actually thinks he still can be what he once was....

Frazier is getting shafted in this debate.
He was a victim of circumstance
First he has that war with Ali,and if I was going to design a fighter to beat Joe Frazier,Id probably come up with George Foreman,I mean just perfect to beat Joe's style

True.

If Frazier were around during pretty much any other era he would be probably have retired undefeated and been a contender for the greatest of all time. I think Lewis, Tyson & Holmes would've beaten him, but not Louis, Marciano or Dempsey for example

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Originally Posted by BIG H

True.

If Frazier were around during pretty much any other era he would be probably have retired undefeated and been a contender for the greatest of all time. I think Lewis, Tyson & Holmes would've beaten him, but not Louis, Marciano or Dempsey for example

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Alot of people hold the Ali loss against big George,but George was a timing fighter. Timing his shots to were he thought you were coming,you couldnt time Ali.
Frazier on the other hand was built for him,he'd get in to a rhythm,as soon as George got that down,"DOWN GOES FRAZIER"
Joe was an incredible fighter,but he was custom built for big George,his corner had Joe scouted perfectly,and lets face it,when the big man caught you with one,you stayed caught.
That was the magic of the "Rope A Dope" almost none of those big shots land,and Foreman can never time him out. And then it quickly becomes quicksand for George,the harder he tries,the deeper he's sinking.Against Frazier all he needed to do was time the weave, and catch him

The more I reflect the more it strikes me -
His speed,
Movement,
Heart,
Ring Generalship,
Chin,
Stamina.


The way he laid out the Iron-Chinned Bona Vena.
The way he outclassed Patterson.
His attritional battle in 75
Withstanding all Shavers had
Destroying the Mongoose.

I don't even have to metion his name.....
When I posted of his unrivalled speed and movement you knew exactly who I was talking about.