Who suffered worse in their defeat, Cotto or Pavlik?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by LEGION

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now:bucktooth: :woot22:

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Bottom line, from what I gather, Pavlik suffered more because the blueprint was laid out on how to beat him?

I am assuming that people think Cotto is more likely to bounce back from his defeat than Pavlik is his?

I disagree. Cotto significantly dropped in his welterweight ranking. Pwill and Margarito are obviously yards ahead of him. As long as they stay at that weight, Cotto will never be on top of his game. Pavlik still stands strong at middleweight. Other than AA, who can beat him?

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Good points for sure; and yes Pavlik is still going to be very hard to beat at MW with the exception of AA; but then again who is at MW that even has a name? Granted Kelly moved up 2 weights to fight Hopkins, so maybe you are correct and it didn't tarnish his rep as much as I see.

But Pavlik I doubt will be able to fight at MW forever and there are quite a few guys at SMW that are going to handle him. I think it hurt Pavlik more in the aspect of him knowing now he is pretty damn limited, and though I think mentally he is strong; that kind of loss will haunt him as he realizes that he can't just expect to keep throwing some jabs and an overhand right and expect to wear someone down eventually without some backup plan, which he doesn't have.

Yes Cotto is in trouble with Margarito and Williams being in the WW division. I wouldn't go as far as to say Margarito is roads ahead of him; just able to sustain ridiculous amounts of punches and slops his way through; though I guess Tony doesn't care if he looks good doing it or not as long as he wins. I still say Cotto can beat him and will in a rematch, though that is just blowing hot air and we'll find out later. Williams is just a freak and will give everyone problems; just a severe height advantage and he's got good skills.

Cotto knows he is still a great boxer and can beat anyone in his division, alot of them and very good names. Pavlik found out he can't box and is a tank that only has one way tracks to drive on, and though he can win a MW with really no names, he will always get labeled a guy who had to stay in a division with limited comp and failed at higher weights, if indeed he does decide to stay at MW from here on out. Pavlik will be in a weak division winning, where as Cotto is in one of the top divisions and may suffer a couple of losses. Who will get more respect when their careers are over?

And for the record Pavlik and Margarito are my fave current fighters and have been, so I'm no hater:tease-new: ;D Jesus what a rambling post this is:rolleyes: I really suck at debating.........

:bag:

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Personally, I don't see it as close: Cotto. However, this article, Who Suffered The More Damaging Defeat, Cotto Or Pavlik?, thinks the defeats are comparable. Pavlik didn't look like damaged goods after 48 minutes of Bhop domination whereas Cotto looked like a train had hit him. Hopkins taught Pavlik a course on the sweet science, but Margarito thoroughly mauled Cotto. Pavlik never hit the canvas during his defeat, Cotto took two or three knees. Cotto couldn't finish the fight, Pavlik easily finished. Am I wrong?

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Pavlik was embaressed and everything he tried he could not get off...something like that can destroy the mentalityt of a fighter worse then a KO loss....It can make you feel like you are not worthy being at that level....You become worried in your next fight with someone of high caliber that you may be humuliated in public again...Embaressment can do crazy things to you......

Cotto was out muscled and he found out that he can not break every fighter down....it can also be very mind damaging but it as long as the fighter does not become punch shy they are usually able to recover much easier

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Ok, but to put it in perspective, Bhop is an all-time-great, who has beat many great fighters (See Tito, ODLH etc.). The level you speak of is at the very, very top. Arguably the greatest super middleweight of all time, Calzaghe, had a hard time with Bhop. If I were him I would be thinking something along these lines: Pavlik lost to a legend, to have to come to grips that maybe, at 26, you are not yet a legend, doesn't seem too much to overcome. Did Bernard at 26 fight someone of Bernard at 43's level? Did Calzaghe? Did RJJ? Nope. It tooks balls. Of course, he got in over his head. But, it wasn't against some chump, it was against a great. Moreover, it wasn't at his natural weight class. And he weathered the storm pretty well: he wasn't knocked out, he never even touched the canvas.

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Originally Posted by LEGION

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by LEGION

IMO Pavlik; and since Killer and ICB already gave the reasons I won't bore anyone with much more.

Pavlik got shown for what he is, hard as it is to say for me, a fairly one dimensional fighter who had a major case of DITH that night against Hopkins, and was embarassed. Great at what he does and a ferocious finisher; but lacking in mobility and an inherent ability to change a gameplan.

Cotto jut got outbullied by a guy who happens to have iron in his DNA. He showed imo a great ability to box but just got caught one too many times and eventually wore out.

If Pavlik had that same kind of ability to walk through punches like Cotto his fight with Hopkins could have been very similar to the Cotto/Margarito fight. Maybe I'm delusional as I just woke up and my mind is scrambled right now:bucktooth: :woot22:

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Bottom line, from what I gather, Pavlik suffered more because the blueprint was laid out on how to beat him?

I am assuming that people think Cotto is more likely to bounce back from his defeat than Pavlik is his?

I disagree. Cotto significantly dropped in his welterweight ranking. Pwill and Margarito are obviously yards ahead of him. As long as they stay at that weight, Cotto will never be on top of his game. Pavlik still stands strong at middleweight. Other than AA, who can beat him?

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Good points for sure; and yes Pavlik is still going to be very hard to beat at MW with the exception of AA; but then again who is at MW that even has a name? Granted Kelly moved up 2 weights to fight Hopkins, so maybe you are correct and it didn't tarnish his rep as much as I see.

But Pavlik I doubt will be able to fight at MW forever and there are quite a few guys at SMW that are going to handle him. I think it hurt Pavlik more in the aspect of him knowing now he is pretty damn limited, and though I think mentally he is strong; that kind of loss will haunt him as he realizes that he can't just expect to keep throwing some jabs and an overhand right and expect to wear someone down eventually without some backup plan, which he doesn't have.

Yes Cotto is in trouble with Margarito and Williams being in the WW division. I wouldn't go as far as to say Margarito is roads ahead of him; just able to sustain ridiculous amounts of punches and slops his way through; though I guess Tony doesn't care if he looks good doing it or not as long as he wins. I still say Cotto can beat him and will in a rematch, though that is just blowing hot air and we'll find out later. Williams is just a freak and will give everyone problems; just a severe height advantage and he's got good skills.

Cotto knows he is still a great boxer and can beat anyone in his division, alot of them and very good names. Pavlik found out he can't box and is a tank that only has one way tracks to drive on, and though he can win a MW with really no names, he will always get labeled a guy who had to stay in a division with limited comp and failed at higher weights, if indeed he does decide to stay at MW from here on out. Pavlik will be in a weak division winning, where as Cotto is in one of the top divisions and may suffer a couple of losses. Who will get more respect when their careers are over?

And for the record Pavlik and Margarito are my fave current fighters and have been, so I'm no hater:tease-new: ;D Jesus what a rambling post this is:rolleyes: I really suck at debating.........

:bag:

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I'm not sure Pavlik's was hurt more mentally. Recall that Cotto couldn't even face the cameras afterward. He didn't even speak to the media for a week. Watch that fight again. He took three knees! He was forced to give up. Compelled. His will was broken. He couldn't stand it any longer. Unlike Amir Khan, who suffered a one punch knockout, Cotto suffered a sustained beat down. I agree with the concept that as long as you don't become punch shy, a knockout isn't necessarily destructive, but having your will broken? That is very different indeed.

In Pavlik's defense, he was forthright about his defeat and didn't seem embarrassed by it. He came right out and said he got "whupped." It is one thing to be schooled. To be shown that you have flaws that you need to fix or that you can't fight at 170 as effectively as you can at your natural weight. It is quite another to be beat into submission at your natural weight.

Speaking of dominating a weak division for years and still being regarded as a great, uhmmm...Joe Calzaghe. Joe didn't fight the Bhops and RJJ's and Kessler's until he had fought many, many fighters and learned an invaluable amount of boxing technique. Obviously, their innate talent levels are different, but dominating any division for years and learning the finer parts of the sweet science is nothing to be ashamed of.

Cotto I know will rebound and I think he will rebound to a level even higher to where he was. He is highly skilled and he will make good things happen.

Pavlik I am not so sure about. I mean maybe he is correct and he was not himself. If that is the case he will come back also. I am just not sold on that. He will have to make real adjustments to his game to be able to counter a mobile fighter again. What bugged me is against Hopkins, all he really needed to do was take a half step back and fire. It is a simple one and he would have at least made Hopkins think twice and would have been a bit more competative. What he really needs is an alternate trainer who will teach him balance in there. Anyone who goes to the ropes is dead meat against him, but a skilled mover will give him troubles. He may never fight another guy with the total package that Hopkins gave him, so it may not be necessary, but he should at least prepare.

Cotto has already done Light-Welterwwight and his boxing ability has kept him in good stead at WW. Also, its no certanty that Williams would beat Cotto ???

Pavlik wont be at 160 for much longer, if at all and we'll have to see how potent of a puncher he is at 168.

Cotto took more of a beating but was alot more competitive in his fight.

Pavlik was dominated by a 43 year old fighter but Hopkins is a great fighter to be fair.

Depends on what you mean by suffer. It seems like rantcantrat takes it to mean who took more physical punishment and so he says Cotto, which is not surprising.

If you go by just which loss looks worse as far as getting shutout by an old man then Pavlik.

Something tells me it might be easier for Pavlik to come back. Can go back down, didn't take a physical beating on the same level that Cotto did. As much as I like Cotto, if he comes out and gets put into a real tough physical fight is he willing to put himself through something like that again? Hopefully he's good but we won't know till it happens.

As others have said,depends on the angle you look at it from.
Pavlik lost to a legend, who had a very clearly defined game pla to beat him.
Cotto got flat out whupped.
As far as who bounces back better,it really depends on which weight class they ply their trade in,and wether or not the flaws Margarito and Hopkins capitalized on can be made to go away. Because you know every future opponent they'll have is looking at those tapes.
But at 28 and 26, I see no real reason why they couldnt both rebound nicely. You never know how a guy is going to deal with a loss. Mancini was probably better after losing to Arquello,Tyson never looked the same after Douglas

Cotto looked good in defeat and won over more fans. Pavlik looked terrible in defeat and barely landed a punch and was slower than mollasses with his punches. Cotto gave everything he had against a brick wall. Pavlik couldn't throw a punch or even when he did muster a swing he missed by a mile.

Cotto suffered more.

It's a lot easier to come back (both physically and mentally) from a fight where you're technically outclassed than it is from a fight where your will gets broken to the point where you collapse to your knees.

Cotto is a better fighter than Pavlik, but he has a bigger challenge in overcoming his defeat.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Cotto suffered more.

It's a lot easier to come back (both physically and mentally) from a fight where you're technically outclassed than it is from a fight where your will gets broken to the point where you collapse to your knees.

Cotto is a better fighter than Pavlik, but he has a bigger challenge in overcoming his defeat.

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Strong Post. I'm not sure that Cotto is a better fighter than Pavlik can be made until we see how their respective careers pan out. But, Cotto beat Sugar Shane, so fair enough.

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Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

Cotto looked good in defeat and won over more fans. Pavlik looked terrible in defeat and barely landed a punch and was slower than mollasses with his punches. Cotto gave everything he had against a brick wall. Pavlik couldn't throw a punch or even when he did muster a swing he missed by a mile.

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That doesn't answer the question poised.

You really think Cotto looked good in defeat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJbQXBKggnU

I think Cotto was MORE overrated than Pavlik. Cotto faced 2 big names that were far from their primes and won a close match against Mosley. Then, he finally faces a champion in his prime and was punished, destroyed, spanked, schooled, annihilated, etc. Whatever you want to call it. As for Pavlik, well, he faced Miranda, and Taylor x 2 in his prime. I see a better resume in Pavlik and it was not like he was going to leave on stretchers when he lost compared to Cotto.

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Cotto took the worse physical beating. Cotto showed that he was the more skilled boxer and won many rounds, but he physical abuse took it's toll on him. It was a little similar to Chavez/Taylor.

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Nice comparison :) . Taylor was connecting Chavez here and there but not really inflicting any damage or slowing down Chavez. At the end, Taylor's face was almost unrecognizable.

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Cotto/Margarito was very competive and it turned back and forth.

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Danny, we meet again, eh? :D
Not sure if the fight was COMPETITIVE as I always saw Margarito walking forward through Cotto's punches and hitting him with everything he got up to the point of having Cotto backpedal throughout the fight.

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Cotto has nothing to be ashamed

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I would be ashamed to struggle with lots of guys who were not even in their prime or dominant champions and then when I finally faced a champion in his prime loose the way Cotto did. He was a bit overrated really.

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Not sure how many other fighters can take Cotto other than Margarito and Williams.

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Let's see how he does against other convicing champions IN THEIR PRIME.

Gotta say Pavlik. He finished on his feet, yeah, but between him and Cotto Pavlik is the one people are reassessing. I think if anything people are waiting to see Cotto in his next outing to decide if he's no longer the fighter he was whereas people are already saying Pavlik isn't the fighter they thought he was.

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Originally Posted by Killface

Gotta say Pavlik. He finished on his feet, yeah, but between him and Cotto Pavlik is the one people are reassessing. I think if anything people are waiting to see Cotto in his next outing to decide if he's no longer the fighter he was whereas people are already saying Pavlik isn't the fighter they thought he was.

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Really? There were many, many people who always thought Pavlik was a one-two punch boxer.

Do you think you'll see Cotto in with a puncher anytime soon? Do you think his management wants to test that chin again?

I like Cotto a lot. Don't get me wrong here. But, Pavlik suffered less by far.

I think you are confusing the question. I didn't ask which fighter was more exposed. I asked who suffered worse in their defeat.

It isn't about finishing on your feet. Amir Khan got ktfo, but it was a one punch knock-out. As a fellow poster mentioned, as long as it doesn't turn the fighter punch shy, he can get over it. But, Cotto was brought to his knees. His will was broken. Pavlik, from what I can tell, still has his will intact.