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If Couture was a few years younger...he would have won that fight. You can see the clear difference in age...but you can also see that Randy has the smarts. More than anything...this shows me that Fedor is still clearly the best heavyweight. Dana White is going to try and build Lesnar into a superstar...but he knows...that until ANY of his fighters take on and beat Fedor...Fedor will remain king.
Ok, but you do realize that we are talking about a guy who was in his 4th MMA fight EVER and beat a fighter that is a Hall of Fame fighter and is NOT anywhere near being washed up? Not to mention if Brock calmed down a little when he dropped Mir, he would be undefeated and have beaten two of the sport's best - EVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
He's not even closed to being a polished fighter and look what he's accomplished. From what I hear, this isn't Dana's doing but Lesnar's. White said that he basically laughed when he asked for Mir. He would rather slow Lesnar down a little bit, but neither White or Lesnar can't go slow down now. Brock said that he only wants the best, so, if he beats Mir (assuming Mir wins his next fight against Nogeira) - we'll see what shakes out.
I also don't agree with Randy's age either. He'll have a few more fights and he'll probably win. I've doubted Couture in the past against younger talent and he shut me up plenty of times. If you noticed, age didn't even come up. He's proven that isn't an issue with him, but they did ask about ring rust. He said there wasn't any, Brock was just a "big sumbitch" throwin "big hamhocks" that "it was hard to get out of the way [of]"
Sad to hear Randy lost to an undeserving opponent, that’s why I would not watch it. Dana is turning the UFC in WWF, taking the true sport out of the picture for $ purposes, lame in my book. If Brock fought his way up the ranks I could respect him more.
Ya, I'd say my prediction was pretty damn close. Remove headbutt, add hammerfist. Wala.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
And I like Randy. But feel people are wayyy underestimating Brock. Before this showing, he proved he can move and has a stand up game...and the man clearly is learning fast. But this is MMA so who knows...hero today, gone tomorrow.
With all due respect to Randy, a fighter i have tremendous respect for, but age is a factor. He is 45 years old and has seen plenty of battles. Can he still beat a lot of fighters out there...probably. But all he is doing is risking serious damage...you just don't want to be closing on 50 years old and getting your head bashed in. As for Lesnar, no question he is a formidable athlete and has improved...but he will now be pushed (whether on his own accord or to White's) as the superstar of the UFC. For all of his athleticism...i just don't see him having the mental game or the solid foundation of years of all around MMA skills to become a truly great fighter. Bottom line for me....the best fighter in the world remains Fedor...so until someone beats him from the UFC...Dana and Lesnar can talk all they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Amateur BoxingOk, but you do realize that we are talking about a guy who was in his 4th MMA fight EVER and beat a fighter that is a Hall of Fame fighter and is NOT anywhere near being washed up? Not to mention if Brock calmed down a little when he dropped Mir, he would be undefeated and have beaten two of the sport's best - EVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
He's not even closed to being a polished fighter and look what he's accomplished. From what I hear, this isn't Dana's doing but Lesnar's. White said that he basically laughed when he asked for Mir. He would rather slow Lesnar down a little bit, but neither White or Lesnar can't go slow down now. Brock said that he only wants the best, so, if he beats Mir (assuming Mir wins his next fight against Nogeira) - we'll see what shakes out.
I also don't agree with Randy's age either. He'll have a few more fights and he'll probably win. I've doubted Couture in the past against younger talent and he shut me up plenty of times. If you noticed, age didn't even come up. He's proven that isn't an issue with him, but they did ask about ring rust. He said there wasn't any, Brock was just a "big sumbitch" throwin "big hamhocks" that "it was hard to get out of the way [of]"
How did you arrive at that conclusion? You really have nothing here but assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinWith all due respect to Randy, a fighter i have tremendous respect for, but age is a factor. He is 45 years old and has seen plenty of battles. Can he still beat a lot of fighters out there...probably. But all he is doing is risking serious damage...you just don't want to be closing on 50 years old and getting your head bashed in. As for Lesnar, no question he is a formidable athlete and has improved...but he will now be pushed (whether on his own accord or to White's) as the superstar of the UFC. For all of his athleticism...i just don't see him having the mental game or the solid foundation of years of all around MMA skills to become a truly great fighter. Bottom line for me....the best fighter in the world remains Fedor...so until someone beats him from the UFC...Dana and Lesnar can talk all they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Amateur BoxingOk, but you do realize that we are talking about a guy who was in his 4th MMA fight EVER and beat a fighter that is a Hall of Fame fighter and is NOT anywhere near being washed up? Not to mention if Brock calmed down a little when he dropped Mir, he would be undefeated and have beaten two of the sport's best - EVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
He's not even closed to being a polished fighter and look what he's accomplished. From what I hear, this isn't Dana's doing but Lesnar's. White said that he basically laughed when he asked for Mir. He would rather slow Lesnar down a little bit, but neither White or Lesnar can't go slow down now. Brock said that he only wants the best, so, if he beats Mir (assuming Mir wins his next fight against Nogeira) - we'll see what shakes out.
I also don't agree with Randy's age either. He'll have a few more fights and he'll probably win. I've doubted Couture in the past against younger talent and he shut me up plenty of times. If you noticed, age didn't even come up. He's proven that isn't an issue with him, but they did ask about ring rust. He said there wasn't any, Brock was just a "big sumbitch" throwin "big hamhocks" that "it was hard to get out of the way [of]"
Brock was an NCAA all american in wrestling and than he was a wrassler which is staged but the demand that goes with that is incredible, it takes an unbelievable beating on your body and regardless of injury (barring catastrophic) you have to perform night after night constant travel on he road for over 260 days a year, not to mention he was the face of the WWE for quite sometime.
After that he walked onto a Minnesota Vikings practice field and almost made the last cut as a defensive lineman..The best attribute that man has is his tenacity and mental toughness, he has competed in 3 serious mainstream careers and operated at the highest level of 2 of them.. Brock certainly has what it takes
Two questions for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
1. What will you say when Brock beats Mir or Nogeira?
2. What will you say when Randy beasts one or two more younger (everyone will be younger) "established" fighters?
Let me answer for you . . .you will say Randy is for real and Brock is better than you thought . . .he's for real too.
Yes Minotauro. He got careless against Herring but the guy is a beast. lets not forget he's 6ft 3 and 240, as you say has some mad BJJ, is a good boxer and IS powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGyMinotauro?I don't think so.He's got some mad bjj but I don't think he can submitt brock.look at his neck.his arm.too huge for a choke or an armbar.only chance is to catch his ankle like Mir did but I doubt if he's gonna make the same mistake again..Brock is just too big for everyone.i think the worst opponent for brock is someone who possess big power and great striking skills.maybe a lorenzo kane or a gabriel gonzaga.but still I'm not saying they will defeat lesnar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkymagic
I loved Randy and he was one of my favourite fighters but if randy would have gotten past Brock i feel he would have lost to Nog. There is no doubt about it Brock is a phenomenal athlete but regardless of Necks and arms they are still submittable. Add to that i think Nog beats him at stand up. His chin is fantastic, his recovery is great BUT he has been in some battles...that may come into play.
From what i read on here also people are talking about Brock fighting Mir should he get past Nog as if people are assuming Mir will beat Nog...please, lets get real. Mirs BJJ is not even on a level with Nogs, his wrestling is nothing to speak of and his standup is way below the par of Nogeuira's..Nog will win easily IMO.
So, it will be Nog-Brock and as much as i think Brock is a powerful, formiddable athlete i think Nog will have his number.
I don't think Minotauro is that good as you said.I think in this sport most of the time its always a matter of imposing your gameplan and I think wrestling is the most effective discipline.Minoutauro..his wrestling is not even close to Brock's and yes he has the best BJJ in the division but boxing?POWERFUL?c'mon man..I can't remember this guy winning via KO.he's fwockin good for real but as far as I know he was never able to battered Herring like Brock did, 6' 3" 240lb?yes he has size but remember he had a close call against a middleweight Dan Henderson.and if I'm right he even lost to him once.Henderson is a Greco-Roman wrestler and its clear Minotauro had troubles with great wrestlers like Josh Barnett.So with this I don't think he can beat Randy.and we all knew he got pretty much exposed to Fedor multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by MunkymagicYes Minotauro. He got careless against Herring but the guy is a beast. lets not forget he's 6ft 3 and 240, as you say has some mad BJJ, is a good boxer and IS powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGyMinotauro?I don't think so.He's got some mad bjj but I don't think he can submitt brock.look at his neck.his arm.too huge for a choke or an armbar.only chance is to catch his ankle like Mir did but I doubt if he's gonna make the same mistake again..Brock is just too big for everyone.i think the worst opponent for brock is someone who possess big power and great striking skills.maybe a lorenzo kane or a gabriel gonzaga.but still I'm not saying they will defeat lesnar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkymagic
I loved Randy and he was one of my favourite fighters but if randy would have gotten past Brock i feel he would have lost to Nog. There is no doubt about it Brock is a phenomenal athlete but regardless of Necks and arms they are still submittable. Add to that i think Nog beats him at stand up. His chin is fantastic, his recovery is great BUT he has been in some battles...that may come into play.
From what i read on here also people are talking about Brock fighting Mir should he get past Nog as if people are assuming Mir will beat Nog...please, lets get real. Mirs BJJ is not even on a level with Nogs, his wrestling is nothing to speak of and his standup is way below the par of Nogeuira's..Nog will win easily IMO.
So, it will be Nog-Brock and as much as i think Brock is a powerful, formiddable athlete i think Nog will have his number.
Sylvia was an unskilled giant who has a good right hand.with some good take down defence and decent chin too.and so was Herring.so far that's all Minotauro has handled in the UFC.He would have all the trouble against an athletic guy and much worst it will be hell to him if he'll go up against a dominant wrestler.I mean a great wrestler.
But I do think he would defeat Mir.and I hope he does.so we can all see how Brock fairs against 'younger' opponent and if he wins again that time I hope he would get the respect he deserves.But I should still state that IMO,Randy was the best heavyweight out there and he just got served.
Sorry mate when i said powerful i didn't mean powerful striking i mean powerful in general, core power with the ability to hang with other powerful heavyweights. He is not a KO artist but he can wear fighters down with his striking and has a good engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGyI don't think Minotauro is that good as you said.I think in this sport most of the time its always a matter of imposing your gameplan and I think wrestling is the most effective discipline.Minoutauro..his wrestling is not even close to Brock's and yes he has the best BJJ in the division but boxing?POWERFUL?c'mon man..I can't remember this guy winning via KO.he's fwockin good for real but as far as I know he was never able to battered Herring like Brock did, 6' 3" 240lb?yes he has size but remember he had a close call against a middleweight Dan Henderson.and if I'm right he even lost to him once.Henderson is a Greco-Roman wrestler and its clear Minotauro had troubles with great wrestlers like Josh Barnett.So with this I don't think he can beat Randy.and we all knew he got pretty much exposed to Fedor multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by MunkymagicYes Minotauro. He got careless against Herring but the guy is a beast. lets not forget he's 6ft 3 and 240, as you say has some mad BJJ, is a good boxer and IS powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGy
I loved Randy and he was one of my favourite fighters but if randy would have gotten past Brock i feel he would have lost to Nog. There is no doubt about it Brock is a phenomenal athlete but regardless of Necks and arms they are still submittable. Add to that i think Nog beats him at stand up. His chin is fantastic, his recovery is great BUT he has been in some battles...that may come into play.
From what i read on here also people are talking about Brock fighting Mir should he get past Nog as if people are assuming Mir will beat Nog...please, lets get real. Mirs BJJ is not even on a level with Nogs, his wrestling is nothing to speak of and his standup is way below the par of Nogeuira's..Nog will win easily IMO.
So, it will be Nog-Brock and as much as i think Brock is a powerful, formiddable athlete i think Nog will have his number.
Sylvia was an unskilled giant who has a good right hand.with some good take down defence and decent chin too.and so was Herring.so far that's all Minotauro has handled in the UFC.He would have all the trouble against an athletic guy and much worst it will be hell to him if he'll go up against a dominant wrestler.I mean a great wrestler.
But I do think he would defeat Mir.and I hope he does.so we can all see how Brock fairs against 'younger' opponent and this time I hope he would get the respect he deserves.But I should still state that IMO,Randy was the best heavyweight out there and he just got served.
Brock and Nog are two very different fighters. At the end of round one against Randy Brock was blowing out of his ass and (ok shoot me for this) if it would have gone another round i think the fight would have been randys. If Nog can last past the first round against Brock i am pretty sure he will get the sub. Its all very well saying his neck and arms are monstrous but when you are knackered you fall into subs and against a master like Minotauro it wont take much for you to find yourself in an armbar or a choke...and 3 rounds in carrying a 280 pound frame about for 15 mins you aint gonna power out of it. Check nog vs Bop Sapp..now i am not going to compare Sapp to Brock (insult to brock) but for Raw muscle power Sapp matches if not betters Brock...and he got caught in an armbar and couldn't power out of it. Nogs main attributes aside from his fighting skills are his incredible ability to absorb punishment and his heart. Look at him vs Mirko...he was getting beaten in the standup by Mirko but in the end Mirko succumbed to a sub. Saying all this Brock has a while to train sub defence so we will see what happens.
Going back to what you said about nog losing to Dan yes about 10 years ago he lost to dan in a dec i think (which he avenged). I always try and judge fighters on their last 5 fights as it tends to give a good indication of where they are at currently and admittedly he has had problems with Josh Barnett..lost a split won a unanimous BUT Josh has a gastank and skills that far exceed Brocks, has a sub arsenal and is an equally fantastic wrestler (for the record i think Josh would crucify Brock)
Its going to be interesting thats for sure, styles make fights and we can talk about it all we want but anything can happen in MMA. Look at Mirko vs Gonzaga!
Rep for the debate anyway ;D
I see your point man.Brock was clearly gassed after being pressed in the cage for most of the round.And it is exactly why I think Randy has the biggest chance of beating him because he's a superb Greco-Roman wrestler..If Nog can do this same thing in the early rounds (which I doubt) I think he can pull-it off.this is one advantage of wrestling that is overlooked,,on how you wear out your opponents by simply putting the pressure on.look how a lot fresher Brock was against Herring after 3rounds that is because he was totally in control of the wrestling game in that fight.against Randy he can't be 'easy' that's why he exerted a lot of energy for him not to be taken down.Quote:
Originally Posted by MunkymagicSorry mate when i said powerful i didn't mean powerful striking i mean powerful in general, core power with the ability to hang with other powerful heavyweights. He is not a KO artist but he can wear fighters down with his striking and has a good engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_pRoDiGyI don't think Minotauro is that good as you said.I think in this sport most of the time its always a matter of imposing your gameplan and I think wrestling is the most effective discipline.Minoutauro..his wrestling is not even close to Brock's and yes he has the best BJJ in the division but boxing?POWERFUL?c'mon man..I can't remember this guy winning via KO.he's fwockin good for real but as far as I know he was never able to battered Herring like Brock did, 6' 3" 240lb?yes he has size but remember he had a close call against a middleweight Dan Henderson.and if I'm right he even lost to him once.Henderson is a Greco-Roman wrestler and its clear Minotauro had troubles with great wrestlers like Josh Barnett.So with this I don't think he can beat Randy.and we all knew he got pretty much exposed to Fedor multiple times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkymagic
Sylvia was an unskilled giant who has a good right hand.with some good take down defence and decent chin too.and so was Herring.so far that's all Minotauro has handled in the UFC.He would have all the trouble against an athletic guy and much worst it will be hell to him if he'll go up against a dominant wrestler.I mean a great wrestler.
But I do think he would defeat Mir.and I hope he does.so we can all see how Brock fairs against 'younger' opponent and this time I hope he would get the respect he deserves.But I should still state that IMO,Randy was the best heavyweight out there and he just got served.
Brock and Nog are two very different fighters. At the end of round one against Randy Brock was blowing out of his ass and (ok shoot me for this) if it would have gone another round i think the fight would have been randys. If Nog can last past the first round against Brock i am pretty sure he will get the sub. Its all very well saying his neck and arms are monstrous but when you are knackered you fall into subs and against a master like Minotauro it wont take much for you to find yourself in an armbar or a choke...and 3 rounds in carrying a 280 pound frame about for 15 mins you aint gonna power out of it. Check nog vs Bop Sapp..now i am not going to compare Sapp to Brock (insult to brock) but for Raw muscle power Sapp matches if not betters Brock...and he got caught in an armbar and couldn't power out of it. Nogs main attributes aside from his fighting skills are his incredible ability to absorb punishment and his heart. Look at him vs Mirko...he was getting beaten in the standup by Mirko but in the end Mirko succumbed to a sub. Saying all this Brock has a while to train sub defence so we will see what happens.
Going back to what you said about nog losing to Dan yes about 10 years ago he lost to dan in a dec i think (which he avenged). I always try and judge fighters on their last 5 fights as it tends to give a good indication of where they are at currently and admittedly he has had problems with Josh Barnett..lost a split won a unanimous BUT Josh has a gastank and skills that far exceed Brocks, has a sub arsenal and is an equally fantastic wrestler (for the record i think Josh would crucify Brock)
Its going to be interesting thats for sure, styles make fights and we can talk about it all we want but anything can happen in MMA. Look at Mirko vs Gonzaga!
Rep for the debate anyway ;D
Now we know Brock can only improve his sub-D but so as Nog I think he should and would improve his wrestling.If he does then he would surely have the advantage.and on the monstrous arms and neck,,i think Sapps is too dumb of a fighter to be even mention.you're absolutely right that it's an insult to compare him.I think he's a lot bigger,but that doesn't mean he is stronger.What I'm tryin to say is it's tough to catch a wrestler's arm offguard because they pay a lot of attention on it coz its such a major factor to their balance and they won't usually make that stupid mistake i think.much more difficult if its real strong and huge.I think their legs and ankles is pretty much their achilles heels..So I guess Nog has a bigger chance if he would intentionally choose to be on full-guard than trying to be on a more dominant position.I think when he's on his back he has the biggest chance of submitting Brock I say maybe via triangle choke or like Mir did he can catch a leg on a scramble.
LMAO on the 'josh would crucify brock' statement.not that I find it absurb,,I actually think he would beat Brock..I was just imagining him literally crucified,,i mean how big that cross shuld hav to be.and what size of nails to be used considering he wears 4XL gloves!!!;D
Reps here too for the Nog-CroCop reminder,,that was a tremendous display of heart for Minotauro.
there are a whole series of chokes that are easier if the guy has big arms and a big neck, brabo, annaconda, figure 4 etc etc, leg locks and knee bars get ya big legs or toothpicks, the biggest challenge from Lesnar is getting past the powerful hands. that said, congrats the better fighter that night won. but submission proof becuase he's big? dude try practicing bjj...you will get another opinion.
I agree I have choked out many of guys of all shapes and sizes... Proper technique far outweighs size and strength. you just have to be more patient and make sure you are going to get the sub.. "position before submission" some of the biggest mistakes I see is when a guy attempts a sub when he dosent have proper position or when he is hellbent on pulling off a sub when its clearly not working, often times that leaves you vulnerable to get hammered or you give up dominant position or put in a bad position.Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman
Nogs often times takes a helacious beating waiting for a sub, I dont know if he can withstand the ground and pound or wearing down, a big, strong quick guy like Lesnar could dish out
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Brock looked like he was gassing after 1 round with a 45 year old. A tired man is easier to sudmit. Ive seen Nog take horrific beatings and comeback .
Brock cant do anything to nog that Fedor couldnt do. Nog survived the distance with the greatest so I think he will survive Brock but when the big man tires hes in a world of trouble . I pick Nog by late round sudmission if that fight ever happens.