Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Did PBF fight any fights at 147 other than against Baldomir and Hatton (who, at 5'6, is a very small welterweight)? Is he considered a true welterweight? Didn't he fight most of his career at lighter weightclasses? PBF jumped up weight, but he retired before he beat any of the top welterweights. When he retired the welterweight division included: Cotto, Shane, Williams, Margarito, and Clottey. None of whom he fought.
Listed at 6'1 1/2, Williams is a very tall welterweight. However, Margarito at 5'11 is not an extremely tall weltweight. Haven't there been many weltweights who fought at 5'11?
Height and reach (to a lesser extent) don't always translate into a winning combination. For a recent example look to Stipe Drews. Drews, a light heavyweight from Croatia, stood 6'5, and was rocked by Danny Green, who stood 6'1. On the other hand, if the boxer fights tall, using mostly his jab to distance himself from his opponent, height and reach can be highly effective against smaller opponents.
In addition, I think taller boxers may naturally fight at lower weight class because they have thin frames. Williams is 6'1 1/2 can fight at weltweight and junior middleweight because he has a thin frame. Nonetheless, his height is more than sufficient for a light heavyweight, but imagine what would happen if he ran into some of the big punching light heavyweights.
My hypothesis would be that a relationship exists between height and body frame that translates into the weight class a boxer should fight at.
Why do people keep on thinking height means size, Its not only height that determines how big you are. I mean look how thick cotto is at 5'7, he looked bigger than the taller Mosley, he looked much bigger htan Judah who was the same height as him. Margarito is a huge welterweight not because he is 5'11, but because his a well muscled, relatively thick 5'11, he isn't spindly.
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Did PBF fight any fights at 147 other than against Baldomir and Hatton (who, at 5'6, is a very small welterweight)? Is he considered a true welterweight? Didn't he fight most of his career at lighter weightclasses? PBF jumped up weight, but he retired before he beat any of the top welterweights. When he retired the welterweight division included: Cotto, Shane, Williams, Margarito, and Clottey. None of whom he fought.
Listed at 6'1 1/2, Williams is a very tall welterweight. However, Margarito at 5'11 is not an extremely tall weltweight. Haven't there been many weltweights who fought at 5'11?
Height and reach (to a lesser extent) don't always translate into a winning combination. For a recent example look to Stipe Drews. Drews, a light heavyweight from Croatia, stood 6'5, and was rocked by Danny Green, who stood 6'1. On the other hand, if the boxer fights tall, using mostly his jab to distance himself from his opponent, height and reach can be highly effective against smaller opponents.
In addition, I think taller boxers may naturally fight at lower weight class because they have thin frames. Williams is 6'1 1/2 can fight at weltweight and junior middleweight because he has a thin frame. Nonetheless, his height is more than sufficient for a light heavyweight, but imagine what would happen if he ran into some of the big punching light heavyweights.
My hypothesis would be that a relationship exists between height and body frame that translates into the weight class a boxer should fight at.
Why do people keep on thinking height means size, Its not only height that determines how big you are. I mean look how thick cotto is at 5'7, he looked bigger than the taller Mosley, he looked much bigger htan Judah who was the same height as him. Margarito is a huge welterweight not because he is 5'11, but because his a well muscled, relatively thick 5'11, he isn't spindly.
Exactly...Height is not size over all EG- Monute Bol..(or how ever you spell his name)...from the NBA...He was the tallest guy in the league at the time I think...BUT he was so skinny he could not compete with the mass of the other centers...mass is the over all
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RozzySean
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Corrales was shot by the time he went up to welterweight, he jumped 140 to do it against one of the best WW's in the world, and he fought well its just Clottey was too big, and strong. I think if Corrales would have taken the time to naturally become a welterweight he would have been fine, but he had been through two brutal fights wtih Castillo, he was killing himself to make weight at 135, and I think mistreating his body like that made it impossible for him to be a contender at 147. I mean Margarito 5'11 at 147, But Corrales was 6' at 130. He was huge, and could hit very hard, had fast hands, good boxing skills when he used them. He was a beast.
Bernard Hopkins was a different situation because all fighters generally go to higher weight classes as their career go on, but Bernard was 40 before he left the middleweight division, in order to survive he needed to keep his weight down, but he fought at middleweight forever without problems making weight.
I have no problem with guys like Paul Williams and Margarito fighting at 147, I would hate to see them ruin their bodies for the rest of their lives making it, but I don't want to see a fighter give up an advantage, especially that advantage to appease certain fans. Margarito wouldn't survive at 154 where guys are bigger than him, and Santos proved that, but at 147 he is a beast. I think it makes guys like MAyweather who climb so high, and still beat the big guys all the more impressive.
It's not fair to say that Tony wouldn't survive at 154 and that Santos "proved" that. Tony is a better fighter than a guy who lost to Santos, and also, Santos is a tall southpaw. Three of Tony's losses have come to tall Southpaws. Maybe that's a coincidence, but some of it might be a matchup issue. Also, the Santos fight was extremely close, Tony was ahead on one card, and if it didn't go to the cards early because of the cut, Margo may well have one that fight. You could say he doesn't belong there if he got sparked or dominated by Santos, but he didn't. And it's not like Santos is chopped liver. He's one of the top guys at 154. I would heavily favor Tony in a rematch with him and I would make Tony a slight favorite in a rematch to Williams. Nobody else at 154 has a chance beat him, unless Oscar comes back up. At worst, Tony would be 4th best LMW right now. I would hardly call that not "surviving."
On your other point, I agree, and I'll add this. You won't ruin your body keeping your weight down if you stay in shape between fights and live a clean lifestyle. If you are making weight the right way, it's not nearly as damaging. Of course, it's not good to regularly dehydrate down 5 or so pounds, but that won't hurt you like starving yourself to lose 30 in 8 weeks and sweating down another 12. That's how you do yourself a lot to damage. The list goes on and an of fighters who abuse themselves between fights - Gatti, Chico, JCC, Bowe, Vargas, Duran, Mayorga, Guzman, and Toney, just to name a few. It's the rollercoast that gets them. Guys like Hopkins and Mayweather who still train and watch their diet between camps tend to have much better longevity. Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Joe Calzaghe isn't a drinker he doesn't put on excessive weight between camps. This is why the clock is ticking on Hatton even though he's only 30. Unless he swears off lager and curry for the rest of his career, he'll be shot in two more years, and when he goes, he'll go fast...a al Castillo and Chico.
But Santons isn't the best that the junior middleweights have to offer, I can't see Margarito beating Vernon Forest, Alcine, etc. His biggest advantage is his ability to impose his size on his opponents, Not that these guys would stop him, but they force him to fight in the middle of the ring where he would be forced to use his limited boxing skills.
I would make a month long sig bet that Margo would beat Forrest or Alcine. We've been though this before. You don't like Tony's style, and you underrate incredibly as a result. I would bet my house on Margarito over Forrest (of today, not the guy who beat Mosley) or Alcine.
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Thats going out on a limb thinking Forrest takes a Tony right now,Hope that is not soley based off Tony's trip up there and 'L' to Santos ?Rather his past problems with tall lanky movers but Forrest would be out hustled in that one and could not find his rythem all night,Not now. I also am convinced that Margarito was on his way to pullin away from santos in the late rounds,possibly even stopping him in the 2nd fight.
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Thats going out on a limb thinking Forrest takes a Tony right now,Hope that is not soley based off Tony's trip up there and 'L' to Santos ?Rather his past problems with tall lanky movers but Forrest would be out hustled in that one and could not find his rythem all night,Not now. I also am convinced that Margarito was on his way to pullin away from santos in the late rounds,possibly even stopping him in the 2nd fight.
Agreed...Forrest does not beat Tony...At any weight
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Did PBF fight any fights at 147 other than against Baldomir and Hatton (who, at 5'6, is a very small welterweight)? Is he considered a true welterweight? Didn't he fight most of his career at lighter weightclasses? PBF jumped up weight, but he retired before he beat any of the top welterweights. When he retired the welterweight division included: Cotto, Shane, Williams, Margarito, and Clottey. None of whom he fought.
Listed at 6'1 1/2, Williams is a very tall welterweight. However, Margarito at 5'11 is not an extremely tall weltweight. Haven't there been many weltweights who fought at 5'11?
Height and reach (to a lesser extent) don't always translate into a winning combination. For a recent example look to Stipe Drews. Drews, a light heavyweight from Croatia, stood 6'5, and was rocked by Danny Green, who stood 6'1. On the other hand, if the boxer fights tall, using mostly his jab to distance himself from his opponent, height and reach can be highly effective against smaller opponents.
In addition, I think taller boxers may naturally fight at lower weight class because they have thin frames. Williams is 6'1 1/2 can fight at weltweight and junior middleweight because he has a thin frame. Nonetheless, his height is more than sufficient for a light heavyweight, but imagine what would happen if he ran into some of the big punching light heavyweights.
My hypothesis would be that a relationship exists between height and body frame that translates into the weight class a boxer should fight at.
Why do people keep on thinking height means size, Its not only height that determines how big you are. I mean look how thick cotto is at 5'7, he looked bigger than the taller Mosley, he looked much bigger htan Judah who was the same height as him. Margarito is a huge welterweight not because he is 5'11, but because his a well muscled, relatively thick 5'11, he isn't spindly.
I don't think I was arguing that height means size. My point was there is a relationship between height and body frame (which probably means size) that translates into what is the natural weight class for a boxer. It would be impossible to be a 6'1 1/2 boxer with a big size and fight at 147. For example, Tyson had the height of a big welterweight, but was a much bigger man than most boxers in general.
Re: Wannabe Welterweights..
