Why Does Hopkins Get Criticism But Hagler Does Not?

Boom Boom, you make a great point & that's why I'm surprised some people didn't think Ray beat Hagler. Hagler was tough no doubt but did beating guys like Hamsho (twice), Vito, Sibson, William Lee, etc. prepare Hagler for a boxer like Ray? None of Hagler's title defenses were against a master boxer like Ray. Hearns could have boxed but chose to slug. Duran was too small. The Mugabi win was impressive but he was another slugger.

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

Boom Boom, you make a great point & that's why I'm surprised some people didn't think Ray beat Hagler. Hagler was tough no doubt but did beating guys like Hamsho (twice), Vito, Sibson, William Lee, etc. prepare Hagler for a boxer like Ray? None of Hagler's title defenses were against a master boxer like Ray. Hearns could have boxed but chose to slug. Duran was too small. The Mugabi win was impressive but he was another slugger.

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Don't forget Bennie Briscoe that was another very impressive win for Marvin Hagler, Bennie Briscoe probably come the closest to stopping the great Carlos Monzon.

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

Boom Boom, you make a great point & that's why I'm surprised some people didn't think Ray beat Hagler. Hagler was tough no doubt but did beating guys like Hamsho (twice), Vito, Sibson, William Lee, etc. prepare Hagler for a boxer like Ray? None of Hagler's title defenses were against a master boxer like Ray. Hearns could have boxed but chose to slug. Duran was too small. The Mugabi win was impressive but he was another slugger.

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i ALWAYS thought he beat Hagler clearly at that. it should have been a UD.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

Boom Boom, you make a great point & that's why I'm surprised some people didn't think Ray beat Hagler. Hagler was tough no doubt but did beating guys like Hamsho (twice), Vito, Sibson, William Lee, etc. prepare Hagler for a boxer like Ray? None of Hagler's title defenses were against a master boxer like Ray. Hearns could have boxed but chose to slug. Duran was too small. The Mugabi win was impressive but he was another slugger.

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i ALWAYS thought he beat Hagler clearly at that. it should have been a UD.

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I disagree it was a very close fight which i had a draw, SRL faded badly down the stretch. But i don't really want to bring it up, because it will open up a can of worms.

But SRL would of been stopped had it been a 15 round fight, like it was supposed to be until SRL got it changed, he also demanded the gloves. The ring size ETC.

SRL waited until Marvin Hagler had slowed then, then chose the right moment, and not only that he also got everything he wanted, which would be in favor of a master boxer like himself.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

Boom Boom, you make a great point & that's why I'm surprised some people didn't think Ray beat Hagler. Hagler was tough no doubt but did beating guys like Hamsho (twice), Vito, Sibson, William Lee, etc. prepare Hagler for a boxer like Ray? None of Hagler's title defenses were against a master boxer like Ray. Hearns could have boxed but chose to slug. Duran was too small. The Mugabi win was impressive but he was another slugger.

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i ALWAYS thought he beat Hagler clearly at that. it should have been a UD.

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I disagree it was a very close fight which i had a draw, SRL faded badly down the stretch. But i don't really want to bring it up, because it will open up a can of worms.

But SRL would of been stopped had it been a 15 round fight, like it was supposed to be until SRL got it changed, he also demanded the gloves. The ring size ETC.

SRL waited until Marvin Hagler had slowed then, then chose the right moment, and not only that he also got everything he wanted, which would be in favor of a master boxer like himself.

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a draw?? Hagler lost the first 3 rounds. which mean he had to win 7 of the last 9 rounds. most of his shots were missed. and SRL timed him perfectly when the round was about to end. it wasnt one sided but i felt he clearly beat Hagler.

now i will watch the fight again and rescore it. :cool:

Hearns is the Motor City Cobra... now I remember, not the Detroit Cobra as I earlier stated. Sorry me badd.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

i ALWAYS thought he beat Hagler clearly at that. it should have been a UD.

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I disagree it was a very close fight which i had a draw, SRL faded badly down the stretch. But i don't really want to bring it up, because it will open up a can of worms.

But SRL would of been stopped had it been a 15 round fight, like it was supposed to be until SRL got it changed, he also demanded the gloves. The ring size ETC.

SRL waited until Marvin Hagler had slowed then, then chose the right moment, and not only that he also got everything he wanted, which would be in favor of a master boxer like himself.

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a draw?? Hagler lost the first 3 rounds. which mean he had to win 7 of the last 9 rounds. most of his shots were missed. and SRL timed him perfectly when the round was about to end. it wasnt one sided but i felt he clearly beat Hagler.

now i will watch the fight again and rescore it. :cool:

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Well you can't imply that me having it a draw, is some sort of shock. Considering how controversial the fight is, its the most debated decision in boxing history.

After the 4th round Marvin Hagler won a majority of the rounds, and was working for most of the rounds. SRL would try and steal rounds with flashy flurries, which wern't really effective as they were mostly slapping shots.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

I disagree it was a very close fight which i had a draw, SRL faded badly down the stretch. But i don't really want to bring it up, because it will open up a can of worms.

But SRL would of been stopped had it been a 15 round fight, like it was supposed to be until SRL got it changed, he also demanded the gloves. The ring size ETC.

SRL waited until Marvin Hagler had slowed then, then chose the right moment, and not only that he also got everything he wanted, which would be in favor of a master boxer like himself.

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a draw?? Hagler lost the first 3 rounds. which mean he had to win 7 of the last 9 rounds. most of his shots were missed. and SRL timed him perfectly when the round was about to end. it wasnt one sided but i felt he clearly beat Hagler.

now i will watch the fight again and rescore it. :cool:

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Well you can't imply that me having it a draw, is some sort of shock. Considering how controversial the fight is, its the most debated decision in boxing history.

After the 4th round Marvin Hagler won a majority of the rounds, and was working for most of the rounds. SRL would try and steal rounds with flashy flurries, which wern't really effective as they were mostly slapping shots.

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well of course his shots arent gonna be effective on Haglers hard ass head. but they were clean landing shots the only shots that looked kinda slappy were in round 12 when he flurried out of the corner.

but like i said i will rewatch this fight for like the 15th time since its one of my favs. i will post my scorecard in a bit. but it couldnt have been draw.

We are branching out here from the main topic.

SRL's initial retirement apart from the detatched retina, is due to Hagler's seeming invincibility in those days. (What more with the injury)

I believe Sugar Ray conveniently used the injury to avoid an inevitable confrontation with Hagler at that point in time. He only came out of this semi-retirement and resumed his career, when in his mind, had resolved to come up with the winning gameplan to beat Hagler.

Which he did!( I believe he narrowly won that fight with Hagler too)
So to Sugar Ray Leonard's credit, he himself now is a walking, breathing, and living legend to the sport.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hagler had one of those careers,that got much better in peoples memory after he retired.
At the time a retired Sugar Ray had more endorsement deals then Hagler did.
10 years from now people will be looking at B-hops career and marveling at it.
You may not like his style,that mixed philly crab,Bernards defense stuff,but you cant argue with the results. And an even weirder part of Bernard,is he takes guys hearts. Nobody except Jones ever looked quite right after fighting Bernard. Taylor became a plodding defensive fighter,Trinidad became a balloon,Holmes became an afterthought,so did Tarver,Johnson went from an undefeated prospect of the highest caliber,to a journeyman.
At the time,nobody liked Hagler's style either,he was neither a bully like Duran or Hearns,neither did he have 5 tons of flash like SRL,but he was somewhere in the uninspiring middle. But he was effective.

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Definately. Haglers legacy got better as the years went on, and even the Leonard fight became more contraversial in Haglers favor in peoples minds.

As for Bernard, I think that the history books may even rank Hopkins in the to 15 fighters of all time. Bernard has said it himself, he wont be appreciated till hes gone.

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Originally Posted by Boom Boom

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hagler had one of those careers,that got much better in peoples memory after he retired.
At the time a retired Sugar Ray had more endorsement deals then Hagler did.
10 years from now people will be looking at B-hops career and marveling at it.
You may not like his style,that mixed philly crab,Bernards defense stuff,but you cant argue with the results. And an even weirder part of Bernard,is he takes guys hearts. Nobody except Jones ever looked quite right after fighting Bernard. Taylor became a plodding defensive fighter,Trinidad became a balloon,Holmes became an afterthought,so did Tarver,Johnson went from an undefeated prospect of the highest caliber,to a journeyman.
At the time,nobody liked Hagler's style either,he was neither a bully like Duran or Hearns,neither did he have 5 tons of flash like SRL,but he was somewhere in the uninspiring middle. But he was effective.

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Definately. Haglers legacy got better as the years went on, and even the Leonard fight became more contraversial in Haglers favor in peoples minds.

As for Bernard, I think that the history books may even rank Hopkins in the to 15 fighters of all time. Bernard has said it himself, he wont be appreciated till hes gone.

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Hopkins is a technician.
For a fan of seeing an exciting fight,it doesnt inspire much.
If your a student of the game itself,you love watching him work,but if you arent,he seems almost boring.
I mean I can see it totally,I think most more casual fans get stunned when he gets KO's,but what their missing is,he's been breaking a guy slowly round by round. And he's also getting his opponents timing and rhythm down,so he can just deliver a one shot KO like he did to DLH.
Hop just sat on that punch,he was just waiting for it.
Just like Hagler,he doesnt excite the public mind,but he does win.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

a draw?? Hagler lost the first 3 rounds. which mean he had to win 7 of the last 9 rounds. most of his shots were missed. and SRL timed him perfectly when the round was about to end. it wasnt one sided but i felt he clearly beat Hagler.

now i will watch the fight again and rescore it. :cool:

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Well you can't imply that me having it a draw, is some sort of shock. Considering how controversial the fight is, its the most debated decision in boxing history.

After the 4th round Marvin Hagler won a majority of the rounds, and was working for most of the rounds. SRL would try and steal rounds with flashy flurries, which wern't really effective as they were mostly slapping shots.

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well of course his shots arent gonna be effective on Haglers hard ass head. but they were clean landing shots the only shots that looked kinda slappy were in round 12 when he flurried out of the corner.

but like i said i will rewatch this fight for like the 15th time since its one of my favs. i will post my scorecard in a bit. but it couldnt have been draw.

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rnd 1 SRL
rnd 2 SRL
rnd 3 SRL
rnd 4 hagler
rnd 5 hagler
rnd 6 SRL
rnd 7 SRL
rnd 8 hagler
rnd 9 even cant really decide who gets its
rnd 10 hagler
rnd 11 SRL
rnd 12 SRL hagler missed alot of shots lol

even if i give hagler rnd 9 SRL would still win.

Hopkins being BORING hurts him. Fair enough, as Ouma says, it's the latter part of his career, but that's when his most high profile fights occured.

NONE of them are memorable/special (to a non fan). The Tito and Oscar fights (these guys don't come close on all-time great lists to Leonard/Hearns) are not really competitive. Just a dominant performance by Hopkins.

Compare that with Hagler-Hearns.. which will ALWAYS be regarded as one of the greatest/thrilling fights ever. Hagler-Leonard is legendary for the "controversy."

I think you have to take into consideration Roy Jones clearly beat Hopkins at middleweight too.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

Well you can't imply that me having it a draw, is some sort of shock. Considering how controversial the fight is, its the most debated decision in boxing history.

After the 4th round Marvin Hagler won a majority of the rounds, and was working for most of the rounds. SRL would try and steal rounds with flashy flurries, which wern't really effective as they were mostly slapping shots.

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well of course his shots arent gonna be effective on Haglers hard ass head. but they were clean landing shots the only shots that looked kinda slappy were in round 12 when he flurried out of the corner.

but like i said i will rewatch this fight for like the 15th time since its one of my favs. i will post my scorecard in a bit. but it couldnt have been draw.

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rnd 1 SRL
rnd 2 SRL
rnd 3 SRL
rnd 4 hagler
rnd 5 hagler
rnd 6 SRL
rnd 7 SRL
rnd 8 hagler
rnd 9 even cant really decide who gets its
rnd 10 hagler
rnd 11 SRL
rnd 12 SRL hagler missed alot of shots lol

even if i give hagler rnd 9 SRL would still win.

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9th round even ? that was Marvin Hagler's best round.

Because Hagler was humble and Bernard constantly runs his mouth