I had it 114-113 (Berto v Collazo)

Alright fight was far from a robbery i mean the ref favored Collazo and ledaeman i think was ignoring alot of the work Berto did Collazo gave away those rounds and i had it close then Betro wins round 11 and 12 and that sealed it for me i dont think it was a robbery at all want to see a robbery go watch Holyfeilds last fight i give him a shot on Cotto he does not have the best chin and he to takes rounds off sometimes as for Margrito well that is a big mountain to climb and Williams i think beats everyone.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

You got this right. Collazo was gassed those rounds. It wasn't stupidity. This fight should have been a draw. The point shouldn't have been taken from Berto, and it was rounds to 6-6. Collazo was in with a man with far superior physical gifts, but he proved what skill can do against, even in the face of talent like Berto's.

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I didn't see skill in Collazo favor, maybe on the inside, it was purely workrate, Berto on the outside was clearly outboxing COllazo when they were actually boxing, but Collazo was using those light, but numourous punches on the inside, and Berto had a hard time dealing with it.

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The factor on the outside was Berto's speed. I was actually surprised at how many shots, even on the outside, Collazo was able to slip, and considering the speed advantage of Berto, the battle from the outside was much close than it should have been. That was skill, not workrate, and Collazo chewed him him up on the inside.

There was some shoeshine on the inside, once Collazo started to tire, but earlier, Collazo was chewing him up with meaningful shots during the infighting. Collazo landed a number of clean shots from the the outside. When they were in tight, Berto really had no answer at any point. Berto got a generous decision in this one. A very generous decision. And the reason he got it was that he won some close rounds with is speed and he clearly won the 12th, finding gear we didnt' know he possessed. This fight was all about his physical ability.

Also, Cotto has a better jab than Collazo. Collazo is a bit faster, sure, but Cotto has a punishing jab. I'm not sure Collazo was any faster than Mosley, and I know for sure that Berto doesn't have Mosley's chin. If Berto steps it up beyond Collazo, he sort out some of the flaws in his game.

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Good post.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

You got this right. Collazo was gassed those rounds. It wasn't stupidity. This fight should have been a draw. The point shouldn't have been taken from Berto, and it was rounds to 6-6. Collazo was in with a man with far superior physical gifts, but he proved what skill can do against, even in the face of talent like Berto's.

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I didn't see skill in Collazo favor, maybe on the inside, it was purely workrate, Berto on the outside was clearly outboxing COllazo when they were actually boxing, but Collazo was using those light, but numourous punches on the inside, and Berto had a hard time dealing with it.

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The factor on the outside was Berto's speed. I was actually surprised at how many shots, even on the outside, Collazo was able to slip, and considering the speed advantage of Berto, the battle from the outside was much close than it should have been. That was skill, not workrate, and Collazo chewed him him up on the inside.

There was some shoeshine on the inside, once Collazo started to tire, but earlier, Collazo was chewing him up with meaningful shots during the infighting. Collazo landed a number of clean shots from the the outside. When they were in tight, Berto really had no answer at any point. Berto got a generous decision in this one. A very generous decision. And the reason he got it was that he won some close rounds with is speed and he clearly won the 12th, finding gear we didnt' know he possessed. This fight was all about his physical ability.

Also, Cotto has a better jab than Collazo. Collazo is a bit faster, sure, but Cotto has a punishing jab. I'm not sure Collazo was any faster than Mosley, and I know for sure that Berto doesn't have Mosley's chin. If Berto steps it up beyond Collazo, he sort out some of the flaws in his game.

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Collazo was the same speed as Mosley, but Mosley never fights punchers the same way he fights boxers, he has always loaded up on punches against guys who could punch, and boxed guys who could box. Mosley fights and has way faster hands when he is boxing and is relaxed. Cotto has a good jab, but so does Berto, its hard to use against a quick southpaw like Collazo, but it would land against Cotto, and more importantly he has that right uppercut that I don't think Cotto can handle.

And Berto used his speed correctly, once again he doesn't have the best cross which is the best weapon against a southpaw, Collazo was smothering him on the inside so Berto couldn't get off that uppercut, and Berto's inside game work way better against a guy like Cotto who fights at a realistic pace and doesn't go crazy on the inside like Collazo did, but I don't think Cotto would have that many oppertunities to get on the inside against Berto.

IMO Berto didn't come in the best shape, he weighed in on fihgt night about 7 pounds more than he did against Forbes, I think he was expecting more of a technical fight where he would be pushing the pace, and I think Collazo surprised him. Cotto certainly had his fair share of poor fights (Torres, Corley, N'dou, most similar was Malignaggi who fought really well as the fight progressed and Cotto got worse) where he couldn't do what he set out to do. Also Cotto tires down the stretch against tough guys while Berto only was getting stronger.

IMO besides Margarito this is the worst matchup for Berto in the division. I think his speed and boxing ability works much better against guys like Mosley, Clottey and Cotto who are more orthodox, guys with lower outputs and are more deliberate. He has faced two of the slicker, quicker guys in the division in Forbes and Collazo.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Manuel "Chubby" Medina

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I had it 114-113 Collazo. But when Collazo took those rounds off I had a feeling he was giving the fight away. And he did. Fukk him. I'm done with him

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Yup pure stupidity on Collazo's part but I still felt he should have won.

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Do you guys even realize the pace they were going?

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Pace didn't bother Berto

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Manuel "Chubby" Medina

Yup pure stupidity on Collazo's part but I still felt he should have won.

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Do you guys even realize the pace they were going?

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Pace didn't bother Berto

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Watch rounds 9 and 10 again, Berto stopped throwing because Collazo was so busy. He definitely was taking those two rounds off.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Do you guys even realize the pace they were going?

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Pace didn't bother Berto

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Watch rounds 9 and 10 again, Berto stopped throwing because Collazo was so busy. He definitely was taking those two rounds off.

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There's a difference between being out worked and taking rounds off. Berto was out worked. He didn't take rounds off

I think Collazo could dictact terms on him.When he attacked...Berto had his offense shut down and backed straight up/held on.Collazo had him fighting in spurts.Berto dug the body well,but head hunted too much.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I didn't see skill in Collazo favor, maybe on the inside, it was purely workrate, Berto on the outside was clearly outboxing COllazo when they were actually boxing, but Collazo was using those light, but numourous punches on the inside, and Berto had a hard time dealing with it.

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The factor on the outside was Berto's speed. I was actually surprised at how many shots, even on the outside, Collazo was able to slip, and considering the speed advantage of Berto, the battle from the outside was much close than it should have been. That was skill, not workrate, and Collazo chewed him him up on the inside.

There was some shoeshine on the inside, once Collazo started to tire, but earlier, Collazo was chewing him up with meaningful shots during the infighting. Collazo landed a number of clean shots from the the outside. When they were in tight, Berto really had no answer at any point. Berto got a generous decision in this one. A very generous decision. And the reason he got it was that he won some close rounds with is speed and he clearly won the 12th, finding gear we didnt' know he possessed. This fight was all about his physical ability.

Also, Cotto has a better jab than Collazo. Collazo is a bit faster, sure, but Cotto has a punishing jab. I'm not sure Collazo was any faster than Mosley, and I know for sure that Berto doesn't have Mosley's chin. If Berto steps it up beyond Collazo, he sort out some of the flaws in his game.

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Collazo was the same speed as Mosley, but Mosley never fights punchers the same way he fights boxers, he has always loaded up on punches against guys who could punch, and boxed guys who could box. Mosley fights and has way faster hands when he is boxing and is relaxed. Cotto has a good jab, but so does Berto, its hard to use against a quick southpaw like Collazo, but it would land against Cotto, and more importantly he has that right uppercut that I don't think Cotto can handle.

And Berto used his speed correctly, once again he doesn't have the best cross which is the best weapon against a southpaw, Collazo was smothering him on the inside so Berto couldn't get off that uppercut, and Berto's inside game work way better against a guy like Cotto who fights at a realistic pace and doesn't go crazy on the inside like Collazo did, but I don't think Cotto would have that many oppertunities to get on the inside against Berto.

IMO Berto didn't come in the best shape, he weighed in on fihgt night about 7 pounds more than he did against Forbes, I think he was expecting more of a technical fight where he would be pushing the pace, and I think Collazo surprised him. Cotto certainly had his fair share of poor fights (Torres, Corley, N'dou, most similar was Malignaggi who fought really well as the fight progressed and Cotto got worse) where he couldn't do what he set out to do. Also Cotto tires down the stretch against tough guys while Berto only was getting stronger.

IMO besides Margarito this is the worst matchup for Berto in the division. I think his speed and boxing ability works much better against guys like Mosley, Clottey and Cotto who are more orthodox, guys with lower outputs and are more deliberate. He has faced two of the slicker, quicker guys in the division in Forbes and Collazo.

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Don't get me wrong, I give Berto a lot of credit for this one. Now in two fights in a row, he's show he has an extra gear and that he's a strong finisher. It's one thing to do that against Stevie Forbes, it's another to do it against Luis Collazo.

Obviously Margo would destroy him, but still I think he loses to Cotto. Clearly the bodywork had an impact on Berto and Cotto would put a hurt on those ribs 10x worse than Collazo and Berto doesn't hit hard enough to keep Cotto from wanting to go downstairs. Call me crazy, but Cintron would have a chance to knock him out early. If Berto got out of the first 4 rounds, the fight would be his. It's clear that Berto doesn't have great power against top quality WW's and defensively, he's no Floyd Mayweather.

Berto has proved he belongs with top tier of WW, and once Tony moves up and Cotto ages a little, I think he'll be the guy to beat. This was a big step in his development. He still lost in my book, he showed a lot of intangibles in this one.

Sean you make valid points, but we will agree to disagree, I think Berto would so badly hurt Cotto that Miguel wouldn't be able to do anything but survive, and that his speed would have Cotto completely overwhelmed. I also think his defense is very good when he is trying to fight defensively, most of the punches that do land he is usually rolling with, Last night he sacrificed his defense to have a shoot out with a guy, I don't think he felt could hurt him. Watch him against Forbes is also really fast and accurate, Forbes couldn't land very much at all because Berto's defense was too sound, but Forbes wasn't a high output guy who kept on coming, that is why I say Magarito, P. Williams are bad for Berto, and why I think Cotto isn't. As for Cintron I think he would KO Cotto as well, and yes he would give Berto all he could handle, but I see smaller punchers like Mosley and Clottey being guys that Berto beats.

I am just watching the fight again, and the this time a lot clearer, and its a lot clearer to me that Berto is winning even more decisively early than I thought, I mean people really need to know whats landing what isn't, Berto's defense makes it so that you have to be really sharp because punches almost land, but they don't. In round three I am having a hard time giving that to Collazo because he wasn't digging in with his punches, he was punching like Calzaghe, and Berto landed so many hard shots in that round, and Collazo didn't hurt Berto to the body, I have no idea what people were talking about.

The reason Berto was getting overwhelmed is because he was trying to pick the right moment to throw the right punches while Collazo was just throwing anything. Also Collazo was leaning right in there to smother Berto's punches, no way would have a ref taken away points from Mayweather or Hopkins or Holyfield who would have done the exact same thing, Berto wasn't even holding THAT much.

I had it 114-113 for Berto, but it just as easily could have been 114-113 for Collazo or a draw. Collazo used a flawed strategy by taking the 11th round off so he could go all out in the 12th. Thing was, Berto had more in the tank and thwarted that move. That's why I gave him the edge.

That said, anyone know what the name is of the judge who had it 116-111? :confused:

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Originally Posted by holmcall

I had it 114-113 for Berto, but it just as easily could have been 114-113 for Collazo or a draw. Collazo used a flawed strategy by taking the 11th round off so he could go all out in the 12th. Thing was, Berto had more in the tank and thwarted that move. That's why I gave him the edge.

That said, anyone know what the name is of the judge who had it 116-111? :confused:

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Hellen Keller :-\

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Originally Posted by holmcall

I had it 114-113 for Berto, but it just as easily could have been 114-113 for Collazo or a draw. Collazo used a flawed strategy by taking the 11th round off so he could go all out in the 12th. Thing was, Berto had more in the tank and thwarted that move. That's why I gave him the edge.

That said, anyone know what the name is of the judge who had it 116-111? :confused:

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I think people need to watch it again, I have it now 115-113. but I actually have Berto up by 3 rounds, and could be 4 if you count purely punches landed in round 6.

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Originally Posted by holmcall

I had it 114-113 for Berto, but it just as easily could have been 114-113 for Collazo or a draw. Collazo used a flawed strategy by taking the 11th round off so he could go all out in the 12th. Thing was, Berto had more in the tank and thwarted that move. That's why I gave him the edge.

That said, anyone know what the name is of the judge who had it 116-111? :confused:

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Bill Clancy

I don't care too much about the scoring, it could have gone either way.

The hype was out of control on Berto. Great speed is not everything, his defense, his skill in general and especially his power, especially his power, has always been cartoonishly over hyped.

He seems like a good guy, has some heart, good stamina (he won the fight on stamina if anything), but he has a long way to go and he should never ever fight Margarito, just ignore that and go about his business.