Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I personally would have Dawson at 10.
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I personally would have Dawson at 10.
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
Eric Harding didn't mean shit at that point of Harding's career. Adamek on the other hand is a huge win. Still, Point in fact Caballero is a unified strap holder in one of, if not the deepest division in boxing. His wins over an undefeated DPDL and Molitor are a huge acheivement.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
Eric Harding didn't mean shit at that point of Harding's career. Adamek on the other hand is a huge win. Still, Point in fact Caballero is a unified strap holder in one of, if not the deepest division in boxing. His wins over an undefeated DPDL and Molitor are a huge acheivement.
It still was a good win regardless yes Eric Harding wasn't in his prime, but he was still a good fighter who was atleast top 6 in the division if my memory serves me right.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
Eric Harding didn't mean shit at that point of Harding's career. Adamek on the other hand is a huge win. Still, Point in fact Caballero is a unified strap holder in one of, if not the deepest division in boxing. His wins over an undefeated DPDL and Molitor are a huge acheivement.
It still was a good win regardless yes Eric Harding wasn't in his prime, but he was still a good fighter who was atleast top 6 in the division if my memory serves me right.
At the end of the day, Dawson's time is coming, Caballero's time is now.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Eric Harding didn't mean shit at that point of Harding's career. Adamek on the other hand is a huge win. Still, Point in fact Caballero is a unified strap holder in one of, if not the deepest division in boxing. His wins over an undefeated DPDL and Molitor are a huge acheivement.
It still was a good win regardless yes Eric Harding wasn't in his prime, but he was still a good fighter who was atleast top 6 in the division if my memory serves me right.
At the end of the day, Dawson's time is coming, Caballero's time is now.
Sheep is right. Dawson deserves to be near the top ten, but not quite there.
Speaking of Adamek, if he beats Banks, in the last year and a half he has beat three top ten cruiserweights in Banks, Bell, and Cunningham.
If Pwill beats Winkie, he too has an argument for the top ten.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I personally would have Dawson at 10.
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
It's not worth debating Preme the kid is a moron.
I agree with you Ice, suprised to see Caballero in the top 10. Dawson is definitely closing in, ignoring what Preme says wins over Johnson, Adamek and Tarver are all great performances, especially seeing as Tarver shutout Clinton Woods in the fight prior and Adamek has gone on to score two huge wins at cruiserweight against O'Neil Bell and Steve Cunningham.
I'd probably have Paul Williams above Cabellero too, big wins over Margartio, Quintana and Phillips.
Still it's good Cabellero is getting recognition at least, he has some impressive wins.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I personally would have Dawson at 10.
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
He fought a really close fight with Glen Johnson regardless of who wins that one, he beat Thomasz Adamek almost every single round(The top cruiserweight in the world) and one of the best LHW's before Chad beat him, He beat Tarver almost every round, and he beat Eric Harding almost every round.
Are you honestly going to say Caballero deserves to be in the top 10 p4p more than him?
I honeslty think Wladimir Klitschko deserves a mention he has beaten a lot of name fighters and guys who are good at heavyweight since he last was knocked out, including avenging that loss. IMO I would have him above Caballero based on opposition.
Also I don't even think Caballero is as good JML, this kid beat Ponce De Leon way faster, Destroyed Andrade, Figueora, and now Medina all in the first round. I'm not sure if even Marquez or Vazquez will be able to handle JML I think he should be in there even anyone besides the two mexicans deserve to be at 122.
Also p4p isn't just about opposition, its how good you are, Mayweather before he had a huge resume was up there because people could see how good he was, Caballero isn't as good as Chad Dawson or JML thats why I don't think he belongs there.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
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Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I personally would have Dawson at 10.
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
He fought a really close fight with Glen Johnson regardless of who wins that one, he beat Thomasz Adamek almost every single round(The top cruiserweight in the world) and one of the best LHW's before Chad beat him, He beat Tarver almost every round, and he beat Eric Harding almost every round.
Are you honestly going to say Caballero deserves to be in the top 10 p4p more than him?
I honeslty think Wladimir Klitschko deserves a mention he has beaten a lot of name fighters and guys who are good at heavyweight since he last was knocked out, including avenging that loss. IMO I would have him above Caballero based on opposition.
Also I don't even think Caballero is as good JML, this kid beat Ponce De Leon way faster, Destroyed Andrade, Figueora, and now Medina all in the first round. I'm not sure if even Marquez or Vazquez will be able to handle JML I think he should be in there even anyone besides the two mexicans deserve to be at 122.
Also p4p isn't just about opposition, its how good you are, Mayweather before he had a huge resume was up there because people could see how good he was, Caballero isn't as good as Chad Dawson or JML thats why I don't think he belongs there.
If you take away the opposition argument, it becomes even more subjective though. Based on talent alone the whole list changes. When you bring in the mix of talent AND opposition it will still be gray especially towards the bottom of the p4p list, there are many fighters knocking on the door of the p4p list Dawson, Williams, Klitschko, Adamek etc. However you look at it though a good case can be made for Caballero, personally I wouldn't have put him there, but I don't really have a problem with him being there, he has a great resume and a style that could trouble just about anyone in the division.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
I'm sorry but Dawson and Klitschko both have a better resume. I would place plenty of guys ahead of Caballero, he might be in my top 20, but not way in my top 20, not even top 15.
There is Wlad, Vitali, Pavlik, Kessler, Haye(unified Cruiserweight champ before going up), Joan Guzman, Campbell, JML, Wright.
I just hate the flavor of the month getting all the credit in the world.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
lopez and haye deserve it more
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I'm sorry but Dawson and Klitschko both have a better resume. I would place plenty of guys ahead of Caballero, he might be in my top 20, but not way in my top 20, not even top 15.
There is Wlad, Vitali, Pavlik, Kessler, Haye(unified Cruiserweight champ before going up), Joan Guzman, Campbell, JML, Wright.
I just hate the flavor of the month getting all the credit in the world.
What flavor of the month? Caballero has been beating quality opposition since 2005. His resume easily trumps that of Haye. Kessler, Guzman and Lopez. He's worthy of his placement.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I'm sorry but Dawson and Klitschko both have a better resume. I would place plenty of guys ahead of Caballero, he might be in my top 20, but not way in my top 20, not even top 15.
There is Wlad, Vitali, Pavlik, Kessler, Haye(unified Cruiserweight champ before going up), Joan Guzman, Campbell, JML, Wright.
I just hate the flavor of the month getting all the credit in the world.
What flavor of the month? Caballero has been beating quality opposition since 2005. His resume easily trumps that of Haye. Kessler, Guzman and Lopez. He's worthy of his placement.
Molitor I really like him as a tactician, but he would fold up and be blown in the wind by JML, Vazquez and Marquez.? Overrated super slow Ponce De Leon? Both PDL and Andrade fought Caballero and JML, Caballero beat Ponce De Leon over 12 rounds and Andrade was losing and was DQ'ed in 10, JML beat them in a combined 1 round.
Joan Guzman doens't have the quality opponents yet, but he is clearly better.
Kessler has Mundine and Calzaghe which is better than anything Caballero has fought. Not to mention Beyer, Eric Lucas, Andrade, and once again he is clearly better, giving Calzaghe one hell of a fight where he was just being outworked, but landing huge shots and hurting Calzaghe several times.
Haye beats him with Mormeck, Glen Kelly, Enzo Maccarinelli, even Monte Barrett is better name.
Clearly Jermain Taylor, Kessler, Wlad Klitschko, Especially Winky Wright despite his inactivity deserve the position more.
I mean Jermain Taylor was KO'ed once, but besides that lost a close fight to Pavlik, had two close fights with Hopkins, beat Ouma, destroyed Lacy.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I'm sorry but Dawson and Klitschko both have a better resume. I would place plenty of guys ahead of Caballero, he might be in my top 20, but not way in my top 20, not even top 15.
There is Wlad, Vitali, Pavlik, Kessler, Haye(unified Cruiserweight champ before going up), Joan Guzman, Campbell, JML, Wright.
I just hate the flavor of the month getting all the credit in the world.
What flavor of the month? Caballero has been beating quality opposition since 2005. His resume easily trumps that of Haye. Kessler, Guzman and Lopez. He's worthy of his placement.
Molitor I really like him as a tactician, but he would fold up and be blown in the wind by JML, Vazquez and Marquez.? Overrated super slow Ponce De Leon? Both PDL and Andrade fought Caballero and JML, Caballero beat Ponce De Leon over 12 rounds and Andrade was losing and was DQ'ed in 10, JML beat them in a combined 1 round.
Joan Guzman doens't have the quality opponents yet, but he is clearly better.
Kessler has Mundine and Calzaghe which is better than anything Caballero has fought. Not to mention Beyer, Eric Lucas, Andrade, and once again he is clearly better, giving Calzaghe one hell of a fight where he was just being outworked, but landing huge shots and hurting Calzaghe several times.
Haye beats him with Mormeck, Glen Kelly, Enzo Maccarinelli, even Monte Barrett is better name.
Clearly Jermain Taylor, Kessler, Wlad Klitschko, Especially Winky Wright despite his inactivity deserve the position more.
I mean Jermain Taylor was KO'ed once, but besides that lost a close fight to Pavlik, had two close fights with Hopkins, beat Ouma, destroyed Lacy.
You need to really follow Boxing to really appreciate Caballero. Aside from De Leon and Molitor, Caballero also holds wins over Somsak Sithchatsomething (who was like 40-1 coming into the fight), the excellent Lorenzo Parra and the fading Mauricio Pastrana. Easily better than some of the fighters you listed.
Joan Guzman- You said it yourself. Doesn't have the quality opponents. He's very skilled. But so are Gamboa, Con and several other fighters. Why not list them?
David Haye- He has Mormeck. That's it. Enzo is crap. Glenn Kelly (are you fukking kidding me?) is beyound crap. Monte Barrett can't win a big fight if his life depended on it.
Mikkel Kessler- He's got some decent wins. But his career is going backwards. Him punking out against Miranda was a straight coward move.
Winky Wright- He ain't won a fight in almost 3 years. He's inactivity is killing him. But a win over Williams erases all that.
Jermain Taylor- I wouldn't have a problem if he's rated above Caballero. His resume is outstanding.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violent Demise
What flavor of the month? Caballero has been beating quality opposition since 2005. His resume easily trumps that of Haye. Kessler, Guzman and Lopez. He's worthy of his placement.
Molitor I really like him as a tactician, but he would fold up and be blown in the wind by JML, Vazquez and Marquez.? Overrated super slow Ponce De Leon? Both PDL and Andrade fought Caballero and JML, Caballero beat Ponce De Leon over 12 rounds and Andrade was losing and was DQ'ed in 10, JML beat them in a combined 1 round.
Joan Guzman doens't have the quality opponents yet, but he is clearly better.
Kessler has Mundine and Calzaghe which is better than anything Caballero has fought. Not to mention Beyer, Eric Lucas, Andrade, and once again he is clearly better, giving Calzaghe one hell of a fight where he was just being outworked, but landing huge shots and hurting Calzaghe several times.
Haye beats him with Mormeck, Glen Kelly, Enzo Maccarinelli, even Monte Barrett is better name.
Clearly Jermain Taylor, Kessler, Wlad Klitschko, Especially Winky Wright despite his inactivity deserve the position more.
I mean Jermain Taylor was KO'ed once, but besides that lost a close fight to Pavlik, had two close fights with Hopkins, beat Ouma, destroyed Lacy.
You need to really follow Boxing to really appreciate Caballero. Aside from De Leon and Molitor, Caballero also holds wins over Somsak Sithchatsomething (who was like 40-1 coming into the fight), the excellent Lorenzo Parra and the fading Mauricio Pastrana. Easily better than some of the fighters you listed.
Joan Guzman- You said it yourself. Doesn't have the quality opponents. He's very skilled. But so are Gamboa, Con and several other fighters. Why not list them?
David Haye- He has Mormeck. That's it. Enzo is crap. Glenn Kelly (are you fukking kidding me?) is beyound crap. Monte Barrett can't win a big fight if his life depended on it.
Mikkel Kessler- He's got some decent wins. But his career is going backwards. Him punking out against Miranda was a straight coward move.
Winky Wright- He ain't won a fight in almost 3 years. He's inactivity is killing him. But a win over Williams erases all that.
Jermain Taylor- I wouldn't have a problem if he's rated above Caballero. His resume is outstanding.
JT, Winky, and Kessler should not be p4p. We aren't talking p4p of the last five years, but current p4p. JT is 1-2 in his last three fights and his win is against Jeff Lacy. Winky hasn't fought in two years and his last fight was a loss against Hopkins. Kessler hasn't fought quality competition in over a year and that was a loss against Calzaghe.
David Haye hasn't done anything to merit a p4p ranking.
Re: Celestino "THE TOWERING INFERNO" Caballero cracks Ring Mag's P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Preme
Dawson got pasy johnson by the skin of his teeth, and beat Tarver, that's it. Man the guy looks like he has skills but has done nothing at all to be spoken about as a top 10 p4p fighter in the world right now... not even close.
What about Tomasz Adamek ? Eric Harding ?
Eric Harding didn't mean shit at that point of Harding's career. Adamek on the other hand is a huge win. Still, Point in fact Caballero is a unified strap holder in one of, if not the deepest division in boxing. His wins over an undefeated DPDL and Molitor are a huge acheivement.
I think Adamek and Tarver are bigger wins than Molitor and De Leon personally, Adamek is now the Ring Champion at cruiserweight and Tarver has been the Ring Champ at light heavyweight and looked great in regaining his title over Clinton Woods in the fight prior.
I like Molitor but let's be real he was a paper champ, hadn't fought anyone remotely world class. De Leon, well I think he's been exposed a bit now.
Cabellero is definitely fighting in the strongest division, but he's not faced any of the best in that division yet, Vazquez, Marquez, Lopez are still fights that need to be made.
But I don't really object to him being there, he certainly looked great in taking Molitor apart and he'll spell trouble for anyone in that division.
