The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

There are some very fucked up things that Ali said to Frazier, and they do make you angry, but people trying to paint Ali as some middle-class knob who had it all at the time ignores the realities of pre-civil rights America and is clearly either a tool or a prick. Some of the stuff Ali said, particularly the gorilla thing went too far, and he has more than readily admitted that how he treated Frazier was disgraceful & ranks with his treatment of Malcolm X after his ex-communication as the most shameful moments of his life. Frazier in no way deserved the treatment he got before his fights with Ali, however, the pleasure he takes in Ali having Parkinsons is disgusting, and when even his own family believe he has to let it go & stop with the hate then maybe there's something to it. Frazier has no problem 'making up' with Ali every time there's a money opportunity for him, then going back to spewing abuse. You can't call on Ali without then doing the same to Frazier. As for the documentary, it is typical of all documentaries (I've made some so I know) the filmaker only shows you what he wants to, they only use Ferdie Pacheco (who I've long thought of as a media-hungry moron) from the 'Ali side'. It is only at the end that it hints at anything that might not show Frazier in a favourable light, and even then it isn't as forceful with it as it is when showing Ali as a bastard. The pair of them both have things they should be proud & ashamed of in their lives, as we all do.

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Rep coming your way, agree 100 percent

I though it was an excellent documentary. For so long Ali has been the darling of the media, and it is refreshing to see a film that is critical of him.

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Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

I though it was an excellent documentary. For so long Ali has been the darling of the media, and it is refreshing to see a film that is critical of him.

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Not seen it yet, but am well aware of Ali and his faults. Glad to hear that there is a little more openness occurring about what Ali was like instead of all the mollycoddling we get far too often.

I tend to agree with Majesty on this one. There is no excusing Ali's actions in regards to Frazier, but he has come out and apologized as well doing some great things internationally. I don't hold it against Frazier for his bitterness but its hard to back the guy when he seems to take a certain amount of pride in having a part in Ali's health.

The documentary was great. In terms of Ali, yeah what he did to Frazier verbally was fucked up. But we must analyze Ali within the context of the 60's/early 70's and not under the context of today. That era was one that was racially charged and Ali was under the influence of the nation of Islam and in my opinion, brainwashed (even Malcolm X began to see the hypocrisy of the movement and drifted away from it before he was assassinated). Ali was part promoter/part fool/and part brainwashed socially, basically playing to the racial undertones to sell the fight. If you noticed, the Philipino crowd booed him when he was introduced as opposed to the crowd in the Rumble in the Jungle, where Ali was an icon. But really, what I focused on was those three fights and how they both mustered the strength to fight 14 rounds in the last fight. That was totally amazing.

Look i like Ali but what the man did was clearly wrong and i not a man to hold a grudge on someone but i have never had that happen to me. For the love of god calling Frasier a uncle tom a man who grow up picking cotton and having his own race turning on him is alot dude. I mean going to his house with a gun when his kids are there and calling him a gorilla ever chance he got i mean shit theres a line were people wont forgive. And it is probably a line Ali crossed with Fraizer and people saying its bad about him taking pleasure in what he did Ali yet again i dont like what happen to Ali. But he never called me a gorrila and made my life hell so if Fraizer takes pleasure in Ali being a cripple because he fucked him over his whole life well i guess i could understand his view on it i guess. People saying he was humbled after his career it might of been because what happen to Ali because i am sure parkensons can humble a mans ego.

Ali was a great boxer, I have enjoyed watching many of his fights. But outside of the ring, he has little merit in my eyes. The guy was a dick, and we can all defend him and say it's about selling tickets or being brainwashed. But at the end of the day, being a dick is being a dick. And Ali was often a dick.

I cannot get any more philosophical than that. I disagree with a lot of Ali's views about race, religion and women. For a man with such a quick tongue, his actual thinking processes never could keep up so well.

Yes, it's sad how Ali is today. I have sympathy for that. And I don't agree with Fraziers comments, but I can see where his comments come from. Ali seems to be revered for more than his boxing which is something I don't really adhere to nor understand so well. I respect the boxing only, it was exceptional, but I was never too keen on what came out of his mouth.

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Originally Posted by miles

Ali was a great boxer, I have enjoyed watching many of his fights. But outside of the ring, he has little merit in my eyes. The guy was a dick, and we can all defend him and say it's about selling tickets or being brainwashed. But at the end of the day, being a dick is being a dick. And Ali was often a dick.

I cannot get any more philosophical than that. I disagree with a lot of Ali's views about race, religion and women. For a man with such a quick tongue, his actual thinking processes never could keep up so well.

Yes, it's sad how Ali is today. I have sympathy for that. And I don't agree with Fraziers comments, but I can see where his comments come from. Ali seems to be revered for more than his boxing which is something I don't really adhere to nor understand so well. I respect the boxing only, it was exceptional, but I was never too keen on what came out of his mouth.

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I am definitely not defending Ali. I am simply implying that he did not mature intellectually as someone like Malcolm X did.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Oh I am certainly pissed off about it too...Ali does all this EVIL stuff, he never got called on it, nobody ever said "this is wrong" not even Jesse Jackson who if I'm not mistaken has always been opposed to racism, Bryant Gumbel even WILLINGLY participated in the racism against Joe Frazier with the article "Is Joe Frazier a white champion in black skin" :rolleyes:

And yet after doing all this crap Ali makes the money, Ali is the icon, Ali is "The Greatest of All-Time"....and all Joe has is his gym and his comparative good health.

Also guys like Gumbel and Jackson are still around spouting their views on race....you already gave us your views and they were fucking wrong 30 years ago and they are wrong right now!

This documentary described in detail why I have a hard time respecting Muhammed Ali as a person.

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It was all gimmicks to sell the fight though. If you watch champions forever you can see that they have a lot of respect for each other.

Also you talk about Ali being beat up in all 3 fights with Joe. Well Joe is a certain top 10 all time great HW. He beat up on everyone he ever fought barring Foreman and that was only because he was tailor made for Foreman. There is no shame at all in being beat up by Smokin' Joe!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Oh I am certainly pissed off about it too...Ali does all this EVIL stuff, he never got called on it, nobody ever said "this is wrong" not even Jesse Jackson who if I'm not mistaken has always been opposed to racism, Bryant Gumbel even WILLINGLY participated in the racism against Joe Frazier with the article "Is Joe Frazier a white champion in black skin" :rolleyes:

And yet after doing all this crap Ali makes the money, Ali is the icon, Ali is "The Greatest of All-Time"....and all Joe has is his gym and his comparative good health.

Also guys like Gumbel and Jackson are still around spouting their views on race....you already gave us your views and they were fucking wrong 30 years ago and they are wrong right now!

This documentary described in detail why I have a hard time respecting Muhammed Ali as a person.

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"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong...They never called me n!gger."--Muhammad Ali

If you're smart enough to understand this quote, you should be smart enough to realize why Ali (as well as millions of Black people) were pissed off and why this thread is so asinine.

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Originally Posted by match

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Oh I am certainly pissed off about it too...Ali does all this EVIL stuff, he never got called on it, nobody ever said "this is wrong" not even Jesse Jackson who if I'm not mistaken has always been opposed to racism, Bryant Gumbel even WILLINGLY participated in the racism against Joe Frazier with the article "Is Joe Frazier a white champion in black skin" :rolleyes:

And yet after doing all this crap Ali makes the money, Ali is the icon, Ali is "The Greatest of All-Time"....and all Joe has is his gym and his comparative good health.

Also guys like Gumbel and Jackson are still around spouting their views on race....you already gave us your views and they were fucking wrong 30 years ago and they are wrong right now!

This documentary described in detail why I have a hard time respecting Muhammed Ali as a person.

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"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong...They never called me n!gger."--Muhammad Ali

If you're smart enough to understand this quote, you should be smart enough to realize why Ali (as well as millions of Black people) were pissed off and why this thread is so asinine.

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Yea, a thread about a boxing documentary, on a boxing forum, where people have different opinions. That is "so asinine.":rolleyes:

His opinion on Ali isn't asinine, the fact that he can't see why Muhammad Ali was so bitter is.

Well also what i did not know is that Joe Fraizer was blind in one eye which gotta be a hell of a problem in boxing yet he still went on atg.

I love it when they booed Ali during introduction. The majority of the crowd was pro Frazier.

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

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Originally Posted by Lyle

...it is just tragic the way Ali treated Joe, and Ali gets the praise and the glory and all Joe gets is the satisfaction of beating up Ali in all 3 fights....he lost 2 of them but Frazier hurt him there is no denying that.

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I watched this documentary and I really got angry. If you choose Ali you were right and if Frazier you were a racist or an uncle Tom. What a crock of shit. Nevermind the fact that Frazier was just a hard nosed blue collared fighter who worked his whole life since he was a kid and Ali was a middle-class school enrolled student who was bred for olympic glory. Something oddley enough when Ali called Frazier an Uncle Tom and a pure nigger. When Frazier was actually treated like a slave his whole life and had to fight for everything he got. I kept saying god damn people were stupid back then. Here is a man who has done nothing to nobody just won the heavyweight crown by KO,and didn't hype himself as "The Greatest" kept his mouth shut and did his job,also helped his friend Ali in need by giving him money when he was flat broke,then get's him back into the ring, then Ali spits back in his face by destroying Frazier's life and Frazier's children from simple childish name calling and the stupid ass media ate the shit up. Fuck everyone who was ever involved with that and thought it was ok. And FUCK Ferdie Pachaceo another piece of shit after that stupid stupid interview last night saying " it was great ". Sorry I'm getting a little pissed off again. But in the end Frazier is still pissed and rightfully so. Fuck Ali for doing that who was his FRIEND in the beginning. He is a backstabbing piece of shit in my mind.

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I honestly thought the documentary was bias in Fraizer's favor heavily.

I like Fraizer better so doesn't bother me but I'm just sayin thats what I saw.