Lyle sets the heavyweight division straight

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by leftylee

Of course it would be better if Haye beat Bitchsko. Haye wouldn't be booed out of the arena and send people to sleep. He would add charisma, power and speed to the divison and get it more talked about. Nobody wants to see Wladimir Klitchsko throwing that jab with the occasional right every few rounds en route to a boring win. David Haye will come out swinging and will get people on the edge of the seats. He won't mess around in there.

And why would it help if Haye was American ? All American fighters are useless and fat. Look at Arreola. He must be carrying at least 30 pounds of excess fat. Tony Thompson ? The pussy cat who went down like a sack of shiit against Klitchsko. Eddie Chambers ? He calls himself fast ? please.

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Listen, lefty...EVERYONE on Saddoboxing knows that you love some David Haye and that you think he's the greatest fighter ever but this thread is about the ENTIRE heavyweight division and not just one fighter and the point I am trying to make to you but you are too dense to understand it is that if Haye does the impossible and wins and he doesn't have anyone new or in shape to fight then the division as a whole will continue to suck and sure you would be happy Haye won and would be champ but it would get old after a couple title defenses vs the likes of Eddie Chambers, Oleg Maskaev, and Denis Boytsov.

Also lefty, if you make one more post that is ONLY about David Haye and how he's the greatest, I will neg rep the shit out of you, and ask the Mods to remove you from this thread (hopefully they will heed my call). You hunt me down where ever I post and no matter what it's about (music, movies, politics) you bring up David fucking Haye...I don't give a fuck about David Haye and the fact you keep bringing him up all the God damn time just makes me want to see Haye repeatedly KO'd in the worst manner possible....and the sad thing is, if you weren't such a twat about it maybe I could appreciate David Haye, but thanks to you that is out of the question.

But back to the topic at hand, I think there are lots of exciting matchups to be made in the division, but the lack of "brand name" fighters has really hurt the heavyweights more than any other division. The loss of Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe at the top of the heap have really left the division reeling. The other weight classes constantly have fighters shuffling in and out and since there is a constant flow of new fighters or fighters new to a weight class, you don't get the stagnant feel of the heavyweight division where the only guys that come up are cruiserweights and light heavyweights and RARELY do they ever have an impact on the division and you have guys like John Ruiz, Andrew Golota, and Oleg Maskaev getting multiple title shots when fresher heavyweights (Dimitrenko, Povetkin, Arreola, et al) could more than likely beat the shit out of those old guys. The fact that the division is the proverbial "end of the line" and cruiserweight is soooooo bad (we have had good cruiserweight fighters in the heavyweight division but the cruiserweight division as a whole constantly sucks) hurts the division.

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:LOLATYOU: Go for it, see if I care. Go bitch ass to the mods. Didn't know that was the American culture. And I'll keep going on about Haye over and over until June 20th and ALL the time afterwards when he destroys the fukking shiit out of Bitchsko. Damn I can't wait.

Can you not leave me alone in any thread?? I asked nicely, I explained in a manner so that even a borderline retard such as yourself could understand

This thread isn't an invitation for you to post about your boyfriend David Haye whom I might add has done absolutely jack shit in the heavyweight division. Pack up your dollies and go home....this thread was meant for the SERIOUS boxing fans and not little Kool Aid drinkers like yourself.....don't cry to hard when Haye boxing's FALSE IDOL gets knocked the fuck out.

Haye didn't work his way to the top, he hasn't sacrificed in the ring, and he doesn't have the heart much less the skill to compete with Wladimir.



Anyway, back on topic....

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Originally Posted by hattonthehammer

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Originally Posted by Killface

Boxing has slit its own throat in some respects. MMA has enjoyed its (re)surgence simply because boxing hasn't been what it could have for many of the reasons Lyle has mentioned. The powers that be are the main ones who are corrupt and they would never want a boxing league. That would require them to be transparent in many respects and be accountable for their actions. As it stands the alphabet titles can make anyone a #1 contender, hell, they can strip the champ and give the belt to anyone they feel like. Their rules aren't reinforced by law. You can sue them if they screw you, but even if you win, but they'll only screw you again by erasing you from the rankings if you ever lose the belt. A boxing league would mean a paycheck for everybody who was in it, but it would also spread out the fights. Think about weekly fights on ABC, NBC, Versus and the bigger fights bumping up to HBO. Sound nice? Never happen. It would require HBO and Showtime to swallow some fights they wouldn't want, regardless of them winding up being good fights.

The best idea I think would be to follow UFC's foot steps. A promoter created league on a channel just aching for programming. Sign some guys to exclusively fight for you in this league on this channel. As guys see these fighters get more exposure (partly because they fight more often) and have their PPV fights do actual numbers even more guys will jump on board. It could blow up in the promoter's face as most of these fighters would probably suck considering the good fighters don't need to hem themselves up, but if it worked the good fighters would come because they wouldn't have to pay a sanctioning body to eventually fight for a title. There could be rankings that made actual sense and was fair to everyone involved.

I would love to see an Emmanuel Steward trained Travis Walker. The guys got everything exciting about a fighter. Great power, physique and a crackable chin. If Steward could teach him to be somewhat of a chess player like Lewis he could go far.

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To be fair with every one success steward has had ie:lewis he has gone on to have another 7-8 failures.

The training of heavyweight fighters is no different to every other division.

As ive already said boxing needs a resurgent of american heavyweights if the division is to make a rise from the ashes.

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Hmm i only think they have to be American if you actually live in America. Like i live in the UK so to me it doesn't matter personally where a fighter is from...and the UFC idea won't really take off unless the fighters actually get into shape. It's been said before, nobody wants to see Arreola and his titties fighting a journeyman with even bigger titties. Even then you're basically running an extended version of the contender and these fighter will still get found out at the top by the eastern block fighters. It's a nice idea on paper to have a boxing league but we all know who would dominate - it would be the same fighters who dominate now. The guys who are the better schooled, take less risks and show up in much better shape.

I understand about capturing the publics attention but David Haye is quite capable of doing if he gets to fight in the states. He won't by the way because he won't get past both Clits. I'd be surprised if he gets past Wlad to be honest.

Point is so long as the fighter gets to show his skills and charisma on the biggest stage...wherever that may be, it doesn't matter what nationality he is. The thing is, it needs more than just one fighter. One dominant US heavyweight will not capture public attention if all his possible opponents are stiffs.

The heavyweight division might not appear to thriving outside of europe but i reckon if you asked a few eastern europeans they would struggle to say anything bad about it. With David Haye willing to travel across Europe and the Cubans signing wtih Arena (i think it is) we might just have to accept that if the heavyweight scene is going to thrive in the future, it will thrive in Europe...mainly Germany.

You have all lost your minds. James Toney is clearly the future of the heavyweight division. A fight against Monte Barrett and he can then take his pick of any of the champions. ;)

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Nameless

I've read something a couple of months ago. Unfortunately, I do not find the source anymore but it was a discussion with Bob Arum (which I hate viscerally) but he said something that makes sense to me:

He says that the reason why HW division is faltering in the Us is mostly because now, the structures to professional sports are much more open than what they used to be before with very good supports for the athletes and such (which is true) and that it was draining a LOT of the top prospects who prefer to give a hit at the NFL or the NBA instead with a program of scholarship and special insurances instead of giving a try at boxing which is not as supported and much more risked. I think that it is effectively a source of the problem because then the pro leagues has to turn even more to what's going on in the olympian ranks. Such sportive structures aren't there in Eastern Countries, Hockey is well developed but that is almost it so their "big guys" potential is not drained by many high elite structures.

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Isn't basketball increasingly becoming like Hockey in that regard?

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Basketball, just like football drag the big dudes that could make the HW, Hockey not that much because size importance doesn't matter as much. I am not saying it doesn't matter at all but not as much, at least, for the moment, especially because overall, junior programs in the US are mostly focused on football and basketball. Sure, there is some stuff for hockey but it is meaningless compared to the programs established in american football or basketball. Perhaps it'll be the same for hockey someday but that day is not tomorrow neither after tomorrow, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by leftylee

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by leftylee

Of course it would be better if Haye beat Bitchsko. Haye wouldn't be booed out of the arena and send people to sleep. He would add charisma, power and speed to the divison and get it more talked about. Nobody wants to see Wladimir Klitchsko throwing that jab with the occasional right every few rounds en route to a boring win. David Haye will come out swinging and will get people on the edge of the seats. He won't mess around in there.

And why would it help if Haye was American ? All American fighters are useless and fat. Look at Arreola. He must be carrying at least 30 pounds of excess fat. Tony Thompson ? The pussy cat who went down like a sack of shiit against Klitchsko. Eddie Chambers ? He calls himself fast ? please.

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Listen, lefty...EVERYONE on Saddoboxing knows that you love some David Haye and that you think he's the greatest fighter ever but this thread is about the ENTIRE heavyweight division and not just one fighter and the point I am trying to make to you but you are too dense to understand it is that if Haye does the impossible and wins and he doesn't have anyone new or in shape to fight then the division as a whole will continue to suck and sure you would be happy Haye won and would be champ but it would get old after a couple title defenses vs the likes of Eddie Chambers, Oleg Maskaev, and Denis Boytsov.

Also lefty, if you make one more post that is ONLY about David Haye and how he's the greatest,I will neg rep the shit out of you, and ask the Mods to remove you from this thread(hopefully they will heed my call). You hunt me down where ever I post and no matter what it's about (music, movies, politics) you bring up David fucking Haye...I don't give a fuck about David Haye and the fact you keep bringing him up all the God damn time just makes me want to see Haye repeatedly KO'd in the worst manner possible....and the sad thing is, if you weren't such a twat about it maybe I could appreciate David Haye, but thanks to you that is out of the question.

But back to the topic at hand, I think there are lots of exciting matchups to be made in the division, but the lack of "brand name" fighters has really hurt the heavyweights more than any other division. The loss of Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, and Bowe at the top of the heap have really left the division reeling. The other weight classes constantly have fighters shuffling in and out and since there is a constant flow of new fighters or fighters new to a weight class, you don't get the stagnant feel of the heavyweight division where the only guys that come up are cruiserweights and light heavyweights and RARELY do they ever have an impact on the division and you have guys like John Ruiz, Andrew Golota, and Oleg Maskaev getting multiple title shots when fresher heavyweights (Dimitrenko, Povetkin, Arreola, et al) could more than likely beat the shit out of those old guys. The fact that the division is the proverbial "end of the line" and cruiserweight is soooooo bad (we have had good cruiserweight fighters in the heavyweight division but the cruiserweight division as a whole constantly sucks) hurts the division.

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:LOLATYOU: Go for it, see if I care. Go bitch ass to the mods. Didn't know that was the American culture. And I'll keep going on about Haye over and over until June 20th and ALL the time afterwards when he destroys the fukking shiit out of Bitchsko. Damn I can't wait.

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Clean it up please fella - this is on the main board ;)

Very good Topic, Lyle. I agree with all your points and in particular the US Heavyweights. The division for the vast majority of it's history with gloves has been ruled by Americans and I for one want to see dominant US Heavyweights.

The Heavyweights is the division I follow most though that has been more difficult in recent years. For me boxing is all about dominant US Heavyweights. Hopefully a fighter or fighters appear but there may need to be alot of changes to the US amateur system and also promoters concentrating on young talent rather than giving the same old guys opportunities.

Now the Americans don't HAVE to run any division, we just need some new blood in the division....we're still waiting for the heir to the Tyson-Holyfield-Bowe throne but even the average guys like Tommy Morrison (a fan favorite) were great for the sport #1 Because he could punch #2 He had dramatic fights #3 Well being white AND in Rocky V helped out a bit, but guys didn't have to be white, Ray Mercer was enjoyed for a while. I wish he had gotten more chances before getting old.

Mercer vs: Tyson, McCall, Golota, Tua would have been great.

But guys like Mercer and Morrison who were from our amateur boxing system who could box AND who could punch just simply aren't there anymore: Devin Vargas and Jason Estrada just ain't cutting it

lefty, i would love to do a sig bet with you. guys who are crowning Haye as the heir apparent amaze me. the guy has proven nothing in the division and you call Klitschko boring even though he has a much higher than average ko percentage (80 something percent if I'm not mistaken). the Haye train comes to a stunning halt on the 20th.

Everyone rants against the alphabet organizations in boxing. But truthfully, there's other divisions out there with enough talent, where the champions of each organization are credible champions (WW, MW, BW, etc). But face it, there's barely enough talent at heavyweight to have ONE champion, let alone one for each alphabet organization in existence. THAT'S why the heavyweight division is in such a sorry state. Any division with a Valuev as champion is as sorry as they come.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Now the Americans don't HAVE to run any division, we just need some new blood in the division....we're still waiting for the heir to the Tyson-Holyfield-Bowe throne but even the average guys like Tommy Morrison (a fan favorite) were great for the sport #1 Because he could punch #2 He had dramatic fights #3 Well being white AND in Rocky V helped out a bit, but guys didn't have to be white, Ray Mercer was enjoyed for a while. I wish he had gotten more chances before getting old.

Mercer vs: Tyson, McCall, Golota, Tua would have been great.

But guys like Mercer and Morrison who were from our amateur boxing system who could box AND who could punch just simply aren't there anymore: Devin Vargas and Jason Estrada just ain't cutting it

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I think that with some quality training Deontay Wilder could develop into a great American heavyweight. He has phenomenal athleticism and is a great guy to boot. The irony of it (giving further creedence to your statement) is that he had the least amatuer training of the whole US Olympic squad. I think that someone be it Arreola or Kevin Johnson or whomever it may be, has to INSPIRE the next generation to want to become boxers.

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Originally Posted by miles

You have all lost your minds. James Toney is clearly the future of the heavyweight division. A fight against Monte Barrett and he can then take his pick of any of the champions. ;)

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OH YOU BITCH MILES LOL , PUT DOWN THAT WOODEN SPOON ;D

I don't see why Leftylee and Lyle always get into a fight about Wlad and Haye , i personally don't dislike either fighter and i think the fight between them is a genuine exciting match up the division needs. Furthermore both Lyle and Leftylee and decent blokes so why do they always get so personal ??
Just sit back and enjoy what is going to be a very short brutal fight.;D
As for America needing a good up and coming heavy , it will happen in time what goes around comes around.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Now the Americans don't HAVE to run any division, we just need some new blood in the division....we're still waiting for the heir to the Tyson-Holyfield-Bowe throne but even the average guys like Tommy Morrison (a fan favorite) were great for the sport #1 Because he could punch #2 He had dramatic fights #3 Well being white AND in Rocky V helped out a bit, but guys didn't have to be white, Ray Mercer was enjoyed for a while. I wish he had gotten more chances before getting old.

Mercer vs: Tyson, McCall, Golota, Tua would have been great.

But guys like Mercer and Morrison who were from our amateur boxing system who could box AND who could punch just simply aren't there anymore: Devin Vargas and Jason Estrada just ain't cutting it

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I think that with some quality training Deontay Wilder could develop into a great American heavyweight. He has phenomenal athleticism and is a great guy to boot. The irony of it (giving further creedence to your statement) is that he had the least amatuer training of the whole US Olympic squad. I think that someone be it Arreola or Kevin Johnson or whomever it may be, has to INSPIRE the next generation to want to become boxers.

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im slightly swayed towards the fact this could be an economical problem above anything else.

Wheres the incentive for these young guys to stick to the most brutal and harshest sport around when they could be earning millions to run into people or throw balls into baskets?

The dedication and willingness to become a top level boxer exceeds every other sport because you need to be finessed in every single attribute and be able to tick all the boxes.

Academys need setting up to nurture these young guys not just in terms of ability but financially so they can afford to spend 3/4 evenings a week hitting a punch bag or sparring rather than at a national football trial or college basketball event.

Theres a clear reason why america no longer dominates the heavyweight scene and it needs to be addressed not just for the sake of heavyweight boxing but the entire sport itself as without the biggest division boxing can no longer reach the highs of the 70s and 80s!!

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

I don't see why Leftylee and Lyle always get into a fight about Wlad and Haye , i personally don't dislike either fighter and i think the fight between them is a genuine exciting match up the division needs. Furthermore both Lyle and Leftylee and decent blokes so why do they always get so personal ??
Just sit back and enjoy what is going to be a very short brutal fight.;D
As for America needing a good up and coming heavy , it will happen in time what goes around comes around.

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Hey, I didn't ask him to post about ONLY David Haye, I welcome everyone's say on the heavyweight division as a whole, but all leftylee wants to do is talk about David Haye and hell all we know about Haye as a heavyweight is that he can beat guys like Tomaz Bonnin and Monte Barrett.

hattonthehammer, not everyone makes it in those other sports, not everyone makes it in boxing either but I bet you a million bucks a solid American Heavyweight can earn more money and have a longer career than an average football, baseball, basketball player. Look at John Ruiz, he's not even that good and he's earned a bank I am sure.